Us Consular Employee in Pakistan Charged with Murder, After Shooting 2 Armed Robbers

Us Consular Employee in Pakistan Charged with Murder, After Shooting 2 Armed Robbers

This is a discussion on Us Consular Employee in Pakistan Charged with Murder, After Shooting 2 Armed Robbers within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; A US Consular employee by the name of David Raymond who works in Pakistan said that he was approached by two men on a motorcycle, ...

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Thread: Us Consular Employee in Pakistan Charged with Murder, After Shooting 2 Armed Robbers

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Us Consular Employee in Pakistan Charged with Murder, After Shooting 2 Armed Robbers

    A US Consular employee by the name of David Raymond who works in Pakistan said that he was approached by two men on a motorcycle, one of whom pulled a handgun, and demanded money. Instead of complying, the civilian US government employee pulled out his own handgun, and shot both men dead.

    Pakistani police quickly arrived on the scene, and took the American into custody. Authorities have now charged him with two counts of murder.

    The entire country of Pakistan is now in an uproar over the killing of these two men by this American. The relatives and friends of one of the dead men said that he had never been involved in any crimes and that the American’s story was a pack of lies.

    Protesters are already demanding that Raymond be executed for his crimes.

    Here is a news report about this alleged self-defense shooting:

    http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default...8-1-2011_pg1_6

    Could the American possibly be telling the truth?? Or is there something fishy here?



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  2. #2
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    Avoid politics and keep it self defense related and this one will stay open.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  3. #3
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    There is more to the story if you read the link. Apparently another Pakistani was killed by the team that came from the consulate to pick the American up, when they drove down a wrong way street.

    Not everyone in consulates gets to carry weapons per my understanding, in fact, very few groups are authorized to do so. It does say in the article that he chased the men on the motorcycle after they robbed him, and then shot him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    Apparently another Pakistani was killed by the team that came from the consulate to pick the American up, when they drove down a wrong way street.
    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    It does say in the article that he chased the men on the motorcycle after they robbed him, and then shot him.
    Granted, everything in the news is to be taken with a grain of salt...but if that is accurate, then it doesn't look good for the American.

    Chasing down someone and killing them, then killing another later sure wouldn't pass muster for a SD shooting around here...

  5. #5
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    Here is a BBC video that gives more information: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-sout...medium=twitter

    It was an attempted car jacking. The Pakistani police say that they did recover weapons from the two Pakistani nationals, who are now both dead. It provides a rather different story than the Pakistani newspaper article linked above did.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    From the sounds of it, if he hadn't shot them, they would have shot him. It just seems odd that two motorcycles are after the same vehicle and both motorcycle operators are armed.
    Hiram25
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  7. #7
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    Not everyone in consulates gets to carry weapons per my understanding, in fact, very few groups are authorized to do so.
    Correct.

    CIA regularly do, regardless of branch, and are often as protocol billed to be 'State Dept' or 'US Consulate'.
    He was not provided with armed security as is questioned in the BBC piece, because quite simply he was not a 'diplomat' even as he very likely traveled under a US diplomatic passport (black). Again normal protocol.

    All will be fine in a few days after families and local govt. officials are compensated for their lo$$; And our man is discretely removed.

    BTW note his shot groupings were tight and thus distinctly on target.
    No wild shooting and he remained upright firing over the top of his steering wheel rim no doubt using a two hand hold.
    This is to the book method as in taking the defensive against an exterior aggressor/threat. Most normal/average people will think to duck down or simply panic and by that fold.

    An average Joe Blow US consulate 'diplomat' administrative person would not be armed never mind have training to perform as such, under pressure.

    - Janq
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  8. #8
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    Been some...discussion...about this in the office today.

    Another link: http://www.npr.org/2011/01/27/133270...1&f=1004&flv=1
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

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    From the looks of the holes in the windshield it appears the carjackers shot first and he was defending himself.

    All will be fine in a few days after families and local govt. officials are compensated for their lo$$; And our man is discretely removed.
    I think Janq hit the nail on the head there.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

  10. #10
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    Fox News has something about it today, apparently the event happened almost a week ago. http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/01...est=latestnews

    Included is this tid-bit:
    As foreign mission worker he enjoys diplomatic immunity but Davis’s case is complicated by a ban on foreigners from carrying weapons in Pakistan and by local self-defense laws.

    Under Pakistani law one can only act in self-defense if attacked first. Merely being approached by someone wielding a gun is insufficient cause under law for the victim to pull the trigger. Also, when firing in self-defense it is only admissible to aim at non-life threatening parts of the assailant's body, such as arms or legs.
    There also seems to be confusion as to what his actual job is. That article says 4 shots at one gunman, 3 at the other.
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    Also, when firing in self-defense it is only admissible to aim at non-life threatening parts of the assailant's body, such as arms or legs.
    I am glad we have no restrictive laws such as this, although hits in certain areas on the arms or legs will result in quick death.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by msgt/ret View Post
    I am glad we have no restrictive laws such as this, although hits in certain areas on the arms or legs will result in quick death.
    I concur, a shot that severs the femoral results in quick death. But that law seems a bit silly to me.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

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  13. #13
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    But a Pakistani police officer described Davis, said to be from Virginia, as a “security official” at the Lahore consulate while others said he called himself a “technical adviser” to the authorities.
    Uh huh...As I'd noted last night.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #14
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    That guy ain't no ordinary guy. He's too switched on and too skilled.

  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    That guy ain't no ordinary guy. He's too switched on and too skilled.
    Why was he carrying a Beretta pistol, however? The article referenced in post #8 said that he was armed with a Beretta. Do CIA agents carry Berettas?

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