UNKNOWN: But a good event to discuss

This is a discussion on UNKNOWN: But a good event to discuss within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by TN_Mike This guy did some stupid things and made some really bad decisions. When the threat was over, they were leaving, he ...

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Thread: UNKNOWN: But a good event to discuss

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    This guy did some stupid things and made some really bad decisions. When the threat was over, they were leaving, he escalated things by going after them. Best thing he could have done was get the tag number, be a good witness and make sure the victims were ok. He prolonged the danger and could have easily endangered many innocent people by going after them.

    He did not handle this right.
    + 1

    He did not repel any threats as folks above state; They were already in their car and _leaving_ the scene as indicated by Thalheimer himself.

    No persons were in any immediate and active danger at that point. Not a shot was fired _before_ he choose to engage and create what became by his indication a multi-point of contact, multiple shooter and high round count fire fight.
    It's by sheer luck that he himself was not hit (not his bullet dodgery skills nor by his five rounds discharged) AND tht no other persons in that parking lot or adjacent buildings were hit as they had been in both their and HIS background.

    All this over what?

    Some buffed rocks and baubles....That are wholly insured for loss, including theft, and are worth much less than that of any humans life, including those third party persons who at that random to their life moment may have been in the background.

    Also I'm really puzzled about his idea to ram the one get away car at all, muchless to do so into it's passenger door.
    Why do this at all, never mind into a part of the car that is non-functional toward it's ability to remain tractive?
    What was he going to do next after ramming it, if his trucks bumper had not become entangled? Back up and drive away, to where...Exactly.

    With regard to his own personal feelings of morals, ethics, 'Alamo' and sand drawn lines...The problem there is that folk have to _think_ and consider the full repercussions and at that possibilities of their actions.
    Thank goodness nobody else got hurt. Thank goodness he didn't get shot for that matter as well. Dumb luck toward both.
    But this was not at all necessary for him to do nor was it proper, even if he'd had a Hollywood style unlimited capacity firearm that requires no re-loading.
    Creating a fire fight situation in a public space period is improper. And he did just that; _Created_ the firefight.
    He was not set upon by these people nor did he "run to gun fire". There were no guns or gun fire on going.
    Thalheimer fired the first shot(s), and they the thieves responded in kind with ironically good and sensible tactics (!). Again per his own statement.

    This is not how to do things nor is it admirable.

    He should have laid low, dialed 911 and reported all that he had seen to _professionals_ who are real, and at that adequately prepared.
    If he could have he might covertly attempt to follow them _at distance!_ to continually report their direction(s) of travel until the police had time to respond.
    While keeping his purely defensive setup and type revolver at close hand in the event they might detect him and by their own choice choose to set up on him, as he then attempted to escape/flee. But to engage offensively with just five rounds toward what was in reality in that immediate initially a non-threat (!),makes no tactical sense even as to him (and others) by his own morals, ethics and on the fly _best case scenario_ imagined capabilities might have shot every person in that car dead and had one round left as reserve.

    This story speaks well to the common advisory both here at DC.com as well as by most other combat & tactics instructors which is; ALWAYS assume their is an overwatch.
    A secondary...Be it as an individual or in this case a group.
    If you see one, assume two. If you see two, assume four. The rest is simple math....And a matter of active tactical & survival thinking.

    Toward those who might think that this is 'Monday morning' (aka armchair) QB action; They are correct...It is just that.
    For those who think to do as much is wrong; That is a position...But in the real world both football teams as well as most any person regardless of industry who has desire to win their own fight will do EXACT SAME as a manner of what is called 'learning by proxy'.
    There is a very good reason why AARs ('After Action Report') are industry normative among those who go into combat be it LEOs or military. It's not to simply document what happened, either. They are done so that other who were not there can review and report action failures as well as strengths to others who also were not there...So that when the poo hits the fan in their own after the fact lives they can do same (good) or hopefully learn to do better (!).
    Writing off commentary as Monday morning Qbing does no one any functional good, including yourself or that of the person who acted actual.

    If we did not have this method and do so as regular, then much of the tactics we know would not be known nor established as _lessons_ to be taught by instructors...As all are based on Monday morning quarterback action of events passed by being lessons learned (!).
    Which here at this site overall and especially in this sub-area is the singular common core point for being here and the sites existence. To share lessons learned and to learn from the errors and gaffes of others.

    This incident is full of errors and gaffes, as reported singularly Thalheimer...About himself.

    At a different site there is an eval of the event, and though the writer is quite harsh in tone...I've gotta agree with hm in full.
    And before you leap to the conclusion that this is an anti-gun write up, it is not. This is actually from a well known and long standing _pro-gun_ and pro-ccw blog.

    Irresponsible Gun Owner of the Day: Sandy Thalheimer
    Posted on February 12, 2011 by Robert Farago
    http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/02...dy-thalheimer/

    At the end of the day we as persons who carry that _ARE NOT POLICE OFFICERS_ we must think before we act.
    What might be moral and just to our own individual values may in the real world not be sensible, justifiable or even in cases lawful to act upon...Never mind being _tactically_ sound.
    You have to be able to think and use your noodle.

    Nobody was being wounded here. Any threat that might have occurred prior to Thalheimer noting these men in the parking lot had in actuality, per Thalheimer's own statements, had been over and concluded.
    They were in their vehicles leaving the scene with no victim actual within sight or even by the report in the immediate area.
    Further to be quite frank, it is not unlawful to wear a ski-mask or other face covering in a public space (!). Seriously. I've worn same and seen many others as well do just this. Big woop.
    Yes they were also speeding as he says in the parking lot, but that in itself is an issue of law enforcement...For a police.

    Thalheimer said he was leaving the store in his truck to pick something up at 7-Eleven when he became suspicious of masked men speeding in his parking lot.

    The store owner took action, ramming the suspects’ black Ford Taurus sedan in the driver’s side with his white pickup truck. All of the air bags in the car deployed.
    Leave the police work to police.
    As civilians our arms carried are defensive purposed only, not offensive as they are for a police or military.
    Additional to that they are for use during _emergencies only_.
    This clearly was NOT an emergency....And no human beings were in danger PRIOR to he choosing to effectively pour gasoline on a what were fireless coals.

    Do not do this.

    In FL he may be fortunate and escape being charged and/or be forgiven for his actions.
    But that as a result and that he walked away very fortunate and unscathed should not by others be looked at as being a positive lesson to be learned, and thus emulated.

    Civilians who happen to carry or keep arms, are not enforcers of law.

    Actions such as this are exactly why antis and fence riders too vote against us....Out of concern that we cannot be able to think critically and properly as in regard to tactical application of _deadly force_ by use of arms kept on our person, in our vehicles or at our homes.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    To think of the 'Alamo' here is erroneous, as that event was toward persons set upon and in turn defending them self as to turn away _active_ invaders.
    This was not at all the fact of the matter as again stated by Thalheimer.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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  3. #17
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    This guy was an idiot. he risked innocent peoples lives in public for insured items by engaging the criminals after they left, and he engaged multiple armed threats with a 5 shot weapon and no reloads. Not only that but the mighty IPDA/ISPC master shot five shots and hit nothing. Imagine that, He is lucky to be alive.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Odds are very good he does not run the gun in his truck during matches and qualifiers; Which likely was a snub nosed revolver and by that are very difficult to shoot with accuracy under stress as relative to a longer sight radius gun.

    IDPA and IPSC is not reflective of real world, but for the trigger time and reload components.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    With the benefit of hindsight, it is evident that his judgement was not good on this one. But, the common thought here by many is that his intention was a gunfight with the perps. This is where we go left and right on the issue. With only the story we have to go with, it very well maybe that his only intention was to stop or slow down the getaway vehicle. Now, I will do a little assuming here on the possibility, but it could be that this was his only intention.
    Then, his plan goes belly up when his vehicle is stuck to their car. At this point, I surmise he knew he was screwed, and when the bullets began to fly, or when he realized he was in an armed confrontation, he then began returning fire.
    I do not believe the man intentionally placed himself in this situation with a 5 shot revolver.

    There is no denying they were already fleeing, but the point I was trying to make is that when the shooting started, they were now stopped, not going anywhere. The man successfully defended himself from four armed attackers with a 5 shot.

    We can go back and forth about whether or not the man should/ not have intervened. But we have much more than that to look out in this incident. And to not look at this part of the incident would be a real mistake, as this is an example of a topic that we debate on DC all the time. Capacity vs....revolver vs....facing multiple assailants. This to me is the real point of interest in this story.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Glockman,

    He did intentionally place himself into the situation with a five shot revolver.
    He knew he had nothing else...And he knowingly and purposefully rammed their car, that did not occur as result of a driving error/accident.

    I do not believe he intentionally hoped to provoke a fire fight though (return fire)...Though he must have considered such a condition very well reasonably might occur (!)
    I mean he just straight up rammed another persons car with assumed BGs wearing ski-masks...And hard enough (velocity) to cause all the airbags in the car he hit to go off AND for his own truck to become attached to that cars sheet metal (!).
    If he did do this with specific intent to get himself involved in an opportunity to shoot his gun, then he's an even bigger fool than assumed as current.

    The only reason they were stopped is because he interjected himself, prior.
    They would not have been stopped and by that no danger to himself in the immediate (!), IF he had not used his vehicle as a weapon from the outset to effectively attack them _first_ causing them to react by firing upon him as being an threat...To them (!).
    If anything they successfully defended themself against him. An odd turn of events, but that is how it played out per Thalheimer's own statements reported. : |
    Nobody was harming anyone or in danger of any sort prior to his unnecessary and ill advised interjection action.

    Very much agreed though as to a secondary (but not primary) discussion of capacity, multiple threats AND I'd also add to that specific choice of firerm type by not action type (revolver vs. SA) but rather sight radius so as to make it easier (long) or harder (short) to actually hit anything at distances greater than belly to belly which a whole lot of folks here at DC.com and public overall seem to assume will be most relevant.
    Folks speak of not getting into 'caliber wars' when the subject of .380, .32 and .22 comes up toward sub-compact and pocket guns.
    But such type sub-compact and pocket guns as well as guns specifically chambered in .380 and .32 very commonly are short sight radius guns that are very difficult for an average skill shooter to shoot with combat accuracy (8" circle with target fully facing and standing at ~21').
    Nevermind doing so against a moving threat in a moving car who is only showing head & shoulders (projectile has to be able to shoot through the door to hit torso)...And who is equally or better armed, and shooting back.
    Why handicap ones self if and when there is no law requiring same by restriction.
    One of the many reasons why I myself 99% of the time choose to carry a full size 5" sight radius pistol (1911) running ammunition that I know will penetrate automotive glass (windshields are as much as triple layer glazed) as well as sheetmetal, and _always_ as a rule I will carry at least one reserve magazine if not most often two(9rd. cap @ 9mm and 10 rd. cap @ 45 ACP).

    If I could ask Thalheimer one question, it would be; What did you learn from this experience.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #21
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    and there you have it, quoted right from this man's mouth.....

    “Shooting is like racing — the person who can go the fastest with the least amount of mistakes wins,” he said.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Jang, I can certainly agree that his decision did not have much thought put into. Back in the 70s this same type of situation occurred near my home town, sans the shooting. A bank was robbed, and a good ole boy followed the robbers, rammed the vehicle and eventually ran it off the road. They ran off leaving the car, but were quickly caught on foot. This is why I suggested his intentions were to only slow their getaway.

    I wonder why he did not have a bigger gun since he obviously trained in combat pistol shooting. I wonder if he cursed his carry choice of the day.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yeah I can see a person thinking that....But as dude learned the very hard way, folk gotta assume that in todays modern world everyone is armed and especially so 'robbers'.

    This is yet another news item where a GG who should know better was caught out with an insufficient type carry gun by design and/or capacity, without regard to any other incident conditions and variables.
    Another equally infamous was the off-duty policeman at the Trolley Square Mall who bravely attempted to stop a single shooter but he had only brought a compact 1911 (Kimber Ultra-Carry IIRC) with just a single 7 rd. magazine, and no spare (!).
    He attempted to engage at distant range, missed with all shots fired (short sight radius!), and then quickly found himself taking return fire at close range as the shooter advanced while he took cover holding his gun at slide lock.
    Responding police arrived just in time to save his bacon and put down the shooter. A minute or two later the shooter would have been on top of him.

    The anniversary of that event was this past Saturday.
    Four-year anniversary of Trolley Square shooting
    "...Bosnian refugee Sulejman Talovic opened fire at Trolley Square, killing five and injuring four others. Vickie Walker lost her husband Jeff in the shooting. Her son AJ survived the massacre but still suffers from long-term brain injuries."
    http://www.fox13now.com/news/kstu-fo...,1552455.story

    - : |
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    This is one of the reasons I have tried to dedicate myself to a hi cap 9mm when on my own time. I think there is much food for thought. If caught up in a fight right now, would you feel good about the gun on your body?

  11. #25
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    After careful consideration I have come to the conclusion that the man did three things incorrectly.

    1. He needed a bigger truck. One that would have scrambled the brains of said B.G.'s.
    2. Bigger (larger capacity) weapon.
    3. Been a better shot.

    Everything else is rationalization on our part.

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