Hidden hostage helps police in NC standoff

Hidden hostage helps police in NC standoff

This is a discussion on Hidden hostage helps police in NC standoff within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Anytime, anywhere, even in the 'safest' of communities. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110211/..._bank_hostages This bank-robbing career is over!!...

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Thread: Hidden hostage helps police in NC standoff

  1. #1
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    Hidden hostage helps police in NC standoff

    Anytime, anywhere, even in the 'safest' of communities.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110211/..._bank_hostages

    This bank-robbing career is over!!
    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519


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    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    You can not negotiate with stupidity. Release the hostages, put the gun down and walk out with your hands up. You do not do that we have no choice but to do what we have to do. Only person hurt was the BG. Good job.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

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    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Even in the North Hollywood Shootout the BGs didn't get away. Bonnie and Clyde were eventually cornered and killed. What in the world makes these low-intelligence criminals think they're going to get away with it?
    My blog

    WARNING: This post may contain material offensive to those who lack wit, humor, common sense and/or supporting factual or anecdotal evidence. All statements and assertions contained herein may be subject to literary devices not limited to: irony, metaphor, allusion and dripping sarcasm.

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    And the requisite “he was trying to turn his life around” story. I agree the LEOs did an admirable job in ending the situation.

    http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/9093527/
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Poses some intersesting questions.
    If your the hidden hostage and you are ccw.
    Do you still call LE?
    Do you volunteer that you are ccw?
    Do you remain hidden?
    Do you take a shot if a clear one is presented?
    What if the robber is threatening to to kill hostages?
    What if LE says do not intervene?
    Food for thought.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paaiyan View Post
    Even in the North Hollywood Shootout the BGs didn't get away. Bonnie and Clyde were eventually cornered and killed. What in the world makes these low-intelligence criminals think they're going to get away with it?
    you answered your own question

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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Poses some intersesting questions.
    If your the hidden hostage and you are ccw.
    I assume that you mean you are someone in the building but not under direct threat because the gunman doesn't know about you?
    Do you still call LE?
    Of course you do, unless it's safer to take immediate action; as with any engagement, good intelligence is key and if you are going to let the police take care of the situation if possible, they need information.
    Do you volunteer that you are ccw?
    I want to say, "Of course," but the last thing you want is to find yourself in a situation where you are compelled to use deadly force after being told by police to keep quiet and out of sight - how is this information going to be conveyed to the jury during the civil suit? I probably would anyway, but you want to think about consequences.
    Do you remain hidden?
    As opposed to what, giving yourself up to the gunman? Or do you mean the choice between hiding and going tactical? If you can stay well hidden and you don't think the gunman has any idea that you are present my first inclination would be to remain hidden (and look for a back door). If my discovery was imminent, I would probably try for a shot unless I was in a hopeless position. Bear in mind that if SWAT is on site, they are probably going to make entry as soon as they hear gunfire and you don't want to be mistaken for a bad guy.
    Do you take a shot if a clear one is presented?
    You mean a completely clear shot, preferably in the back? Definitely.
    What if the robber is threatening to to kill hostages?
    I assume you are referring to the specific threat of. "If you don't... I will kill a hostage," and not the general threat implied by the act of taking hostages? If you believe he's an imminent threat, you've got to do what you've got to do.
    What if LE says do not intervene?
    There is no "if" here. Any competent LEO is going to tell you not to intervene - he has no idea of your knowledge, training or judgment and isn't going to have his permission come back to haunt him if you do something stupid or simply fail due to circumstances beyond your control. Again, it comes down to your own personal judgment. In the end, the police officers are in relative safety on the other side of the door; their advice will be the best in many, perhaps most, circumstances, but not all and perhaps not in your case.
    Food for thought.
    Good stuff, we all need to think about how we'll respond if our gun becomes something more than an insurance policy.

    Ryan
    Those who will not govern their own behavior are slaves waiting for a master; one will surely find them.

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    As darkness fell, Mitchell slowly walked out of the bank with the woman hostage. Officers swarmed and the suspect fell to the ground amid a cluster of gunshots and smoke.
    I didn't see any video nor was I even aware of this happening prior to seeing the thread here; But I do know as fact that this is hyperbole and fictional writing.

    Modern ammunition is _smokeless_!...Never mind that of duty ammo.
    I have never seen a gun shooting duty ammo create any smoke what so ever, even when fired quickly as in volume.
    Further how could this reporter have seen any smoke at all when as reported, it was dark outside (!).

    Artistic license. : |

    Rather than interject crap, just report the facts and stick to that.
    It's supposed to be news not pulp fiction.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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    Here's the vid of the ending. Looks to be from a TV helicopter. Not sure what initially put the BG down, but there are multiple shots taken once he is on the ground. It's pretty grainy on full screen, but you can make out the rounds hitting the concrete curb. The LEO on the right has something pointed at him that lights up. I'm kind of wondering if they tazed him then shot him. Not that it would matter too much to me personally. Gunman with a hostage is asking for this.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0ICp2MOIA4
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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  10. #10
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Poses some intersesting questions.
    If your the hidden hostage and you are ccw.
    [A] Do you still call LE?
    [B] Do you volunteer that you are ccw?
    [C] Do you remain hidden?
    [D] Do you take a shot if a clear one is presented?
    [E] What if the robber is threatening to to kill hostages?
    [F] What if LE says do not intervene?
    Food for thought.
    A - By all means IF in doing so does NOT sacrifice your ability to _remain_ covert and undiscovered in whole or police contact part.
    See the Discovery Channel building terrorist attack of fall 2010 and the actions made to do similar by one of the two directly contacted hostages.

    B - There is no point in the immediate to doing so.
    Why? See 'F'.

    C - Yes.
    It is to your own tactical advantage and self benefit to do so (!); As well it is in a very real way same for those contacted by the the threat(s) AND you are of greater benefit to the outside (law enforcement) able to act as an eyes & ears relay for them...As related to planning of their own tactical incident response.
    Not remaining hidden and thus exposing yourself to the threat(s) gains you nothing valuable and risks adding real stress and agitation to a conditional situation that is already highly stressful and agitated.
    This should be a no brainer.

    D - Yes, and No.
    Yes if you are absolutely sure; 1) There is a SINGLE threat and 2) That you in the REAL WORLD, not ones own 'hero' imaginations, have the skillsets as shooting ability and in hand firearm tool choice along with ammunition selection to make such a shot at X distance as within Y timing of opportunity to impart a _minimum_ of Z physical wounding/injury to the threat so as to in a SINGLE shot be effectual in stopping the threat.
    That is a bit of math; Algebra. Which is how it goes with any manner of shooting be the shooter a LEO or civilian, and the target a human, animal or steel target.
    Think of how many folks are walking around carrying sub-caliber .380 ACP, .32 ACP and even .22LR in their pockets as per the MANY threads we've had on same just recently as this calendar year alone. Folk who depend and bet their lives on face to face and belly to belly threat interactions, against humans naked of clothing and with the constitution of a pinata.
    Think of all the folks who pocket carry sub-compact and compact guns that only have an inch long barrel and a sight radius total somewhere at 3"or less.
    Think of all the folk who never train, did not seek out in the past decade never mind annually any manner of skill development, and they go to the range once or thrice a year to dump ammo quick firer style at a static paper bullseye type target placed at 21" or less distance.
    Meanwhile this threat is moving, walking & talking, at 35' or greater across a banks floor and your shot is limited in angle and shooter position as being made from a crouch or even prone position to fire through the glass of the door providing you concealment, as rather than standing on a line. Now what?
    Algebra...And physics.

    E - He has already threatened to do so and did from the start by brandishing a firearm.
    Even if the robber is mute and does not utter a single word; His actions speak loudly to be same.
    This much is a given as otherwise then there would be no issue to report on and people would be free to leave on their own accord as rather than to suffer being taken hostage.
    This too is a no brainer as questions go. The threat is real,immediate and active.
    See my writeup on this here from two years ago in the archives as in relation to 'J.A.M. (Justification, Abilty, Means)' which as related to LEOs is most commonly referred to with slight difference as 'A.O.J.' (Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy) as well as 'A.O.I.' (Ability, Opportunity, Intent) and by students of Ayoob as 'A.O.J.P.' (Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy, Preclusion).

    F - That is SOP, is to be expected.
    Further that is the best advisory a LEO could offer to any civilian anyway both by view of potential result as well as agency and individual liability.
    A LEO has no idea at alll what your _actual_ and _real_ capability might (or might not!) be as in relation to handling a firearm period.
    I do not mean you personally and literally Guantes, but rather as to this person undetected by the threat having a conversation with a police on the outside.
    Further the police would have no idea of ones own mindset and ability to accurately (!) and properly read a situational condition. Never mind that most normal and average people are not sharpshooters on a given public range against again a static target at 21'.
    Of course a LEO is goign to advise you to 'Stand Down' if armed. Further being armed is not a magic talisman against shooter error,or even the intended target (threat) being stopped by a single shot as fired.
    Then there is also liability for the town in advising a civilian as to be a dilettante to act and make ahigh risk to all effort. Risk to himself, the immediate hostage with a gun to their head...AND those among the background too.
    If I were a police, and some person stated tome hey I've got a gun and could take the shot!..I'd tell that person to put their gun away and keep it away as toward their own individual personal defense exclusively.
    My view would only change if you came back with a statement asserting yourself to be Larry Vickers, Kyle Defor, Travis Haley or Chris Costa, Jerry Miculek, Rob Pincus (DC.com member), Gabe Suarez (DC.com sponsor) or some other person of tested and known quantity _combat handgun_ and tactical exercise real world validated experience.
    Even then I would be hesitant to give a green light as once more due to LIABILITY.
    To expect as much being the _civilian_ on the phone doing the talking, is simply not reasonable.

    Myself if I were any of the above persons noted OR had any seriously effective skillsets & capabilities that are REAL and functional in the immediate (not 'hero' imaginations) then well I would not ask for approval and a greenlight in the first place....I'd most likely act and do so as an independent, knowing that I personally as by such choice of action do take on direct and real civil liability should I act wrongly and/or screw the pooch. Which is a very real possibility to occur as an otherwise unintended result.

    Food for thought it is.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Whole thing sounds like Suicide By Cop. BG enters bank, takes hostages, tells them to call 911, then exits with a hostage and a gun. He was looking to die!
    Hiram25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiram25 View Post
    Whole thing sounds like Suicide By Cop. BG enters bank, takes hostages, tells them to call 911, then exits with a hostage and a gun. He was looking to die!

    I fully agree with the above statement.

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    the employee described the suspect as wearing a purple shirt and red pants
    Ewww.... They should have known immediately he was off his rocker. I wonder what his shoes were.

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    Update: Suspect unarmed

    This should confirm the suicide by cop theory.

    Police: Hostage-taker at NC bank was unarmed
    CARY, N.C. (AP) — A man who told hostages and police he had a gun was actually unarmed during a three-hour standoff that ended with officers shooting and killing him outside a North Carolina bank, police said Sunday.

    Cary Police Chief Pat Bazemore said 19-year-old Devon Mitchell concealed an object inside a red toboggan hat and presented it as a gun, but that he didn't have a firearm. Mitchell had as many as seven hostages, though most were released during the course of the standoff on Thursday.
    http://enews.earthlink.net/article/u...5-5517177b0ef1

    News conferance video here (after ad). http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/video?id=7956280

    Given what information the police had at the time their actions are fully justified.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

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