OK City Pharmacy Robbery Murder Trial

This is a discussion on OK City Pharmacy Robbery Murder Trial within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; The kid, shot in the head on the pharmacy floor, was no longer a threat. The pharmacist calmly walked by him, GAVE HIS BACK TO ...

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Thread: OK City Pharmacy Robbery Murder Trial

  1. #31
    TVJ
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    The kid, shot in the head on the pharmacy floor, was no longer a threat.

    The pharmacist calmly walked by him, GAVE HIS BACK TO THE HEADSHOTED PERP ON THE FLOOR, got another gun, calmly returned, and delivered more rounds.

    Giving his back tells me one thing clearly and reasonably: The pharmacist was under zero threat from the perp on the floor.

    Guilty. Period.

    The pharmacist traded his freedom for the emotional high of getting to experience the feeling of vigilante justice.

    Go to jail.

    This is a great example to underscore the bedrock foundational self defense organizing principle: Neutralize the Threat.

    This phrase is so much more than a legal term if you really get it deep down in your self defense gut and let it grow.

    Neutralize the threat can range from something as simple as just not being/going to high risk places....or walking away......all the way to the efficient use of immediate deadly force....and knowing clearly when a threat stops.

    Otherwise, we train to go to jail.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    It's not the context of your post. I fully understood what you were getting at. It is the statement "I also wouldn't stop shooting until I know the threat is dead". The legal system is not going to overly trouble itself with context. It will focus on those 12 simple words.

    Hopefully a defense attorney will be able to negate that if it is brought up, but the jury will have heard it...damage done. 10 years from now, it is unlikely that you or I will remember anything that we post, but it is still there, waiting.

    Harold Fish got hung out to dry for carrying a 10mm handgun, as one of the most deadly and destructive handguns on the market. The DA spent a great deal of time on that little issue. It's the little things that we would not think as damming that get us.
    TVJ likes this.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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    Member Array Mjodr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    It's not the context of your post. I fully understood what you were getting at. It is the statement "I also wouldn't stop shooting until I know the threat is dead". The legal system is not going to overly trouble itself with context. It will focus on those 12 simple words.

    Hopefully a defense attorney will be able to negate that if it is brought up, but the jury will have heard it...damage done. 10 years from now, it is unlikely that you or I will remember anything that we post, but it is still there, waiting.
    You miss the point that the statement, as you read it, is not against the law. Nor is it a statement of intent to do something against the law. It is a statement that abides the law of my state, no matter how you read it. About the only thing it would prove, as you read it, is that I am willing to kill to keep myself from dying. Even that is an interpretation, and well.. anyone that carries a gun to protect themselves should be willing to do that. And that is the point of the law in the first place.. to allow for justifiable homicide, if it is necessary to protect yourself. The law also does not say how many times you can or can not fire your weapon.

    Now, I supposed if I somehow ended up in Washington DC or Nebraska... I could possibly be in trouble.
    Coming soon to a Montana near you!

  5. #34
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    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  6. #35
    Member Array Mjodr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post
    Not sure what that means.. but I'm done arguing. :) We'll just have to agree to disagree. Your state is different than mine, so the laws are different. (The reason I chose DC and Nebraska is neither place has Castle Doctrine or Stand Your Ground laws.. I believe)
    Coming soon to a Montana near you!

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjodr View Post
    ... but I'm done arguing...
    That's what it means. See you in another thread.
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    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  8. #37
    Member Array Mjodr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVJ View Post

    Neutralize the threat can range from something as simple as just not being/going to high risk places....or walking away......all the way to the efficient use of immediate deadly force....and knowing clearly when a threat stops.
    I fully believe in that. However, I've lived in some high-risk places. Despite that, I never was a fan of firearms. I'm 32, and I only recently decided to carry., mainly because the risk has gotten worse as the population here has gone up and due to things that have happened to me and my parents. It is nearly impossible to walk away inside your own home.. and in Florida you are not required to retreat even if you are outside the bowling alley. I know I certainly hope I never have to use my weapon other than at the firing range.. but we don't always get what we want. Still, if I can safely get away.. I know I am damn sure going to try. After moving to Montana, I should not have anything to worry about.
    Coming soon to a Montana near you!

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjodr View Post
    I fully believe in that. However, I've lived in some high-risk places. I never was a fan of firearms. I'm 32, and I only recently decided to carry., mainly because the risk has gotten worse as the population here has gone up. It is nearly impossible to walk away inside your own home.. and in Florida you are not required to retreat even if you are outside the bowling alley. I know I certainly hope I never have to use my weapon other than at the firing range.. but we don't always get what we want. Still, if I can safely get away.. I know I am damn sure going to try. After moving to Montana, I should not have anything to worry about.
    Even in your own home, if you shoot an intruder, then turn your back on him, go get another firearm, and then return to him and fire five more rounds into him as he lays helpless and unarmed on your floor, Florida law will not excuse your actions. There is a rebuttable presumption that a person in Florida encountering an intruder in their own home is justified in using deadly force, but execution is not covered.

    Matt
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattInFla View Post
    Even in your own home, if you shoot an intruder, then turn your back on him, go get another firearm, and then return to him and fire five more rounds into him as he lays helpless and unarmed on your floor, Florida law will not excuse your actions. There is a rebuttable presumption that a person in Florida encountering an intruder in their own home is justified in using deadly force, but execution is not covered.

    Matt
    I agree. I''ve stated that I am not for a coup de grace. If they are helpless I'd keep a weapon trained on them and make sure no weapon is on the floor in reach as I call 911. I'd only fire until they were down. If they continue an attack, I'd continue to protect myself. That is all I've stated.

    I should point out, I would only fire if they had a weapon (gun), or if it was too dark to see but I believe they have a weapon (any). (In my own home, single, no children) I wouldn't fire simply because the person entered my domicile, although legally, I could. If I need to defend myself from an unarmed man or man with a knife, I always have my battleaxe or baseball bat.

    I stated on the topic of the guy in Oklahoma that I don't necessarily think the way he handled things was right. I just don't think he should have gotten a murder charge.. manslaughter at the most. I also don't believe he should have chased the other guy.

    *BTW.. I do have Asperger's Syndrome, so sometimes things come out.. odd.
    Coming soon to a Montana near you!

  11. #40
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Having come across more than one CCWer who basically is just walking around inventing reasons in his mind to open fire on somebody, I expect to see more scenarios like this make it to the news.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers View Post
    Having come across more than one CCWer who basically is just walking around inventing reasons in his mind to open fire on somebody, I expect to see more scenarios like this make it to the news.
    He took it too far, but getting a gun pulled on you is a pretty good excuse. It's not like he went around to find someone to kill. The guy tried to rob his store. Now, following the other guy outside.. that was definitely a no no.. and if he did coup de grace.. so was that.
    Coming soon to a Montana near you!

  13. #42
    TVJ
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mjodr View Post
    He took it too far, but getting a gun pulled on you is a pretty good excuse. It's not like he went around to find someone to kill. The guy tried to rob his store. Now, following the other guy outside.. that was definitely a no no.. and if he did coup de grace.. so was that.

    a pretty good excuse For What?

    Please elaborate, specify.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVJ View Post
    a pretty good excuse For What?

    Please elaborate, specify.
    Defend yourself... open fire. Unless you think there should be a Mexican stand-off that nobody will win.

    I am not sure how you didn't get that from my post. Why does it seem people are just looking for something to complain about?

    *If that came off as snippy, I apologize.. I am just getting tired of people questioning every little thing. We don't all have to agree on every single thing. It just seems like everyone on this forum tend to argue about anything and everything.. caliber, OC vs CC, pocket carry, round in chamber vs no round in chamber, how people choose to defend themselves, federal reciprocity laws or not, interpretations of peoples' statements...

    This is my last post in this thread because I am not here to argue with anyone, and people don't seem to like to see other "legal" views and opinions on news stories.
    Coming soon to a Montana near you!

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVJ View Post
    The kid, shot in the head on the pharmacy floor, was no longer a threat.

    The pharmacist calmly walked by him, GAVE HIS BACK TO THE HEADSHOTED PERP ON THE FLOOR, got another gun, calmly returned, and delivered more rounds.

    Giving his back tells me one thing clearly and reasonably: The pharmacist was under zero threat from the perp on the floor.

    Guilty. Period.

    The pharmacist traded his freedom for the emotional high of getting to experience the feeling of vigilante justice.

    Go to jail.

    This is a great example to underscore the bedrock foundational self defense organizing principle: Neutralize the Threat.

    This phrase is so much more than a legal term if you really get it deep down in your self defense gut and let it grow.

    Neutralize the threat can range from something as simple as just not being/going to high risk places....or walking away......all the way to the efficient use of immediate deadly force....and knowing clearly when a threat stops.

    Otherwise, we train to go to jail.
    Very well stated! The perp on the floor is no longer a threat. I believe most, if not all states that allow a deadly force response have similar verbiage in the statutes. Once someone is no longer a direct and imminent threat, deadly force is no longer authorized. When the pharmacist returned to the store and re-engaged the guy on the floor, the shooter went from legally defending himself against an immediate threat to an aggressor. I think that's the basis of the guilty verdict. I also think it was a mistake to exit the building and chase the other perps. A better response would have been to keep a gun trained on the guy on the floor and be ready in case he makes another furtive gesture or if his friends returned to the store.
    Tim
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  16. #45
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TVJ View Post
    The kid, shot in the head on the pharmacy floor, was no longer a threat.

    The pharmacist calmly walked by him, GAVE HIS BACK TO THE HEADSHOTED PERP ON THE FLOOR, got another gun, calmly returned, and delivered more rounds.

    Giving his back tells me one thing clearly and reasonably: The pharmacist was under zero threat from the perp on the floor.

    Guilty. Period.

    The pharmacist traded his freedom for the emotional high of getting to experience the feeling of vigilante justice.

    Go to jail.

    This is a great example to underscore the bedrock foundational self defense organizing principle: Neutralize the Threat.

    This phrase is so much more than a legal term if you really get it deep down in your self defense gut and let it grow.

    Neutralize the threat can range from something as simple as just not being/going to high risk places....or walking away......all the way to the efficient use of immediate deadly force....and knowing clearly when a threat stops.

    Otherwise, we train to go to jail.
    ^This^

    My wife and I both agree with a guilty verdict, but she thinks he should have gotten manslaughter for simply taking self-defense too far. I'd have taken either, but leaned towards the murder charge. The guy obviously thought the kid wasn't a threat as he just calmly walks by him, shows him his back and fetches another gun.

    1. I would not have chased the other criminals into the street. That's going past self-defense and leaning over the line into vigilante territory.

    2. Since I did not chase the other criminals into the street shooting after them, my primary weapon would not be empty and I wouldn't have to show my back to the one on the floor to fetch another gun. I would cover him until police arrived.

    3. On the off chance my primary did end up emptied and I had to fetch another gun, I would fetch it and again cover the criminal until police arrived. If he's incapacitated to the point that I really felt comfortable showing him my back (which is unlikely anyway) he does not get shot again.

    The biggest point is that he felt comfortable showing the criminal his back. If the threat is incapacitated to the point that he's OK with that, it doesn't need to be shot again. Especially not several times.
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