Bad and Good
This is a discussion on Bad and Good within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Bad that these knuckle draggin' thugs fired at the business owner and got away. Good no innocent people were hurt. This occured in the northeast ...
Post By ksholder
Post By TVJ
June 15th, 2011 01:31 AM
Bad and Good
Bad that these knuckle draggin' thugs fired at the business owner and got away. Good no innocent people were hurt. This occured in the northeast suburbs. Check out the embeded video. If you were one of the customers and you were armed, what would you have done?
Gunfire Erupts Inside Roseville Store During Holdup - Detroit Local News Story - WDIV Detroit
June 15th, 2011 01:49 AM
Two robbers calling the shots before you know it. Definitely get as close to a grip as I can when ordered to the floor. When the fireworks start, then shoot moving (to cover if any) until empty and, if there's still a threat, then reload (moving or behind cover) and repeat.
Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
-Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)
June 15th, 2011 01:50 AM
Not sure. the store is small and there were quite a few people. If I was on the ground and the BG was right near me, maybe I could've done something, but that one guy looked like he was hanging back to "watch" everyone else, so not sure if I'd be able to draw without being noticed.
June 15th, 2011 08:59 AM
Nothing til lead starts flying, at which point my life is in danger, then go for the "looker" first. There is a reason I don't hang out in such places.
It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!
"When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson
You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.
June 15th, 2011 12:26 PM
I agree. Expect I may get noticed.
Originally Posted by paul34
I write this to raise questions from what I see in the video in an attempt to make this event as "real" as I can for me as a CCH.
Robber in front (ends up jumping the counter), robber at flank; all patrons herded together; counters make a irregular U type shape that leads to the door out. dont see rest of video...bummer. Various locations of patrons...from all the way in the back by door with second bad guy to the rest sitting at front counter. dont know how dynamics change after the video stops. No patrons ultimately killed.
My location is one important item that influences tactics. I assume at front of store with others arbitrarily.
I see three ways to go: Immediate surprise ambush counterattack, comply/improvise attack, comply totally.
Comply and do nothing. Another instance where all lived when they did nothing. I realize some turn out different.
Immediate Counterattack: Can I train myself to take immediate, surprise action in a situation like this? When I say fast, I mean:
Hear guy yell robbery type words, initially orient and watch him wave gun walking toward us at front; Operant Condition triggers: Go! - no "thinking about it"; watch gunposition, waves it around, points up, attack from appendix carry draw, bang bang....,head shots from right hand while left hand stretches towards his gun to block. keep shooting until drops like lead for positive CNS hit. Accept: Potentially get shot, potentially die from injuries. Must neutralize him immediately. All focus here on that intention. More FoF training, how skillful am I.
Now gets more potentially ugly for me personally: figure out there is a second bad guy if I fail to notice, Point/shoot aim at second bad guy, perp potentially hiding behind good guy (before puts him on floor), if perp hiding behind good guy and shooting at me.....this really sucks for me....shoot at him and high risk hitting customer while getting shot at...OODA loop reset for me there as I type this...I want clean shot and to avoid hitting customer....no cover, just concealment to jump behind or duck...yuk.....hopefully guy runs away if/when he sees/hears his cohort drops from a headshot.....some do...but that is hope....might happen, might not...assume he stays to fight.....second guy makes this ugly for me and my unwillingness to risk shooting good guy.
Critical issue for me to deal with now. If I go to gun, I really have to be willing to potentially hit good guy in gunfight to lower the risk of injury to myself. That's really key for me to think about in my gut. If I am just totally unwilling, then that dictates a change in tactics for myself.
Lastly, comply/ambush is an option. No idea from video what options occurred after the tape stopped. I know I need to train Prone FoF Airsoft/appendix draw/ point-shoot to get that fighting posture real and deal with issues from that position. For me this is a large tactical issue. Glad this tread brought it up. Same as above though.....need to have "Go!" cues and look for them during the event to trigger action. These may include: can I escape out a door, is there cover, do both move in front of me so I now flank, do both have their eyes away from me, do I have clear shots and backstops, how fast does my prone FoF training tell me I can point shoot for speed/surprise/accuracy from prone. Seems like alot to think about in the moment, what are the odds of this happening to me..... If it does, it's a really important moment.
Additionally, can I train a set of "Orienting Rules" I use as a SD framework when I go into any store.....what are my brief Orienting Rules to help me if robbery occurs? How do I make these questions applicable in a fluid, changing, chaotic event. It seems I need just a few mental questions that underpin most events that can help orient me towards stacking successful counterattack/escape odds in my favor.
I seem to have a lot of questions. I think they are relevant and valid.
I appreciate others thoughts on them.
Again, I write this in an attempt to make this event as "real" as I can for me as a CCH.
"When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
- Frederic Bastiat
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