SD shooting pushes neighbor to get CHL.

This is a discussion on SD shooting pushes neighbor to get CHL. within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Good to hear. I have a question, though: is there some kind of "temporary" permit the neighbor can get? I assume the Texas permit still ...

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  1. #16
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    Good to hear. I have a question, though: is there some kind of "temporary" permit the neighbor can get? I assume the Texas permit still takes at least a few weeks to receive. In that time, the neighbor is still going to have to walk around unarmed.

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    No Texas doesn't have any temporary permits.

    You can carry on your private property, either open or concealed and you can conceal in your vehicle when in the public. Being that he has recently had knee replacement he isn't going to be going too far from home in the near future I wouldn't think.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  4. #18
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    I am going to play devils advocate here. In this case, how would one to the leg be a bad idea? BG left immediately, and police were good with the shoot. Neighbor is clear based on statements from himself, his family and minor girl that was getting the snot beat out of her.

    This is a perfect example of why there are no absolutes when we talk of self defense. When we say "never do X", but "X" stopped the threat, kept everyone in his family safe and didn't leave him with the consequences of killing a man in his yard, how can "X" be the thing that is never to be done?

    Again, I am not advocating the action, but simply using it as a point of discussion about how varaiables sometimes mean that what we sometimes deem a bad idea is not necessarily a bad idea.


    A bit more background. The neighbor is prior military, I don't remember if he is Marine or Army, I think Marine. 100% DV, and just had knee replacement so quick movement is out of the question. The neighbor was on an elevated porch with a railing and the BG was in his yard coming from street level. I do not know what the distance was but it is about 30-40 ft or so to the street from the porch.

    Yes, BG is still alive and family may want retribution, but would they be any less likely to want retribution is BG is dead? Probably not in my mind. Don't know, that is one of those variables again.

    I believe the opinion is that if there were a civil trial brought by the BG, his laywer would ask you, "If you did not feel threatened for your life, making a kill shot neccessary, then why did you feel it was neccessary to shoot my client in the leg, which is still considered deadly force?"

    You get the wrong judge and jury and you might be in trouble.

    I agree, given the outcome and the fact that the poilce are satisfied and this did happen in Texas things should go OK for the neighbor. However it's possible for a slick lawyer to make a leg shot appear to be application of deadly force while the homeowner was not in fear for his life.

  5. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    I believe the opinion is that if there were a civil trial brought by the BG, his laywer would ask you, "If you did not feel threatened for your life, making a kill shot neccessary, then why did you feel it was neccessary to shoot my client in the leg, which is still considered deadly force?"

    You get the wrong judge and jury and you might be in trouble.

    I agree, given the outcome and the fact that the poilce are satisfied and this did happen in Texas things should go OK for the neighbor. However it's possible for a slick lawyer to make a leg shot appear to be application of deadly force while the homeowner was not in fear for his life.
    I would think that the defendant's attorney would chalk it up to a less-than-optimally placed shot while under extreme stress.

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    I believe the opinion is that if there were a civil trial brought by the BG, his laywer would ask you, "If you did not feel threatened for your life, making a kill shot neccessary, then why did you feel it was neccessary to shoot my client in the leg, which is still considered deadly force?"

    You get the wrong judge and jury and you might be in trouble.

    I agree, given the outcome and the fact that the poilce are satisfied and this did happen in Texas things should go OK for the neighbor. However it's possible for a slick lawyer to make a leg shot appear to be application of deadly force while the homeowner was not in fear for his life.
    Lets see. BG kidnapped a minor girl and brought her across state line, was beating the mess out of her to the point she had to be assisted in escaping from the auto she was being beaten in. BG was given ample warning that the cops were on their way by the land owner.

    Then BG threatens land owner saying he will beat his ..... and exits his car with a steal pipe towards the land owner.

    Really, do you think that any attorney will take the case. Do you think that any judge would let it continue based on CPR 83.001, and do you really think that any jury in this area would even consider holding the property owner liable for injury to the BG.

    Where does one possibly get that the homeowner would not be in fear for his life based on the facts of this incident? I would love to hear a valid argument for the case.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post

    Then BG threatens land owner saying he will beat his ..... and exits his car with a steal pipe towards the land owner.
    That was a lethal force confrontation. If I would have accidentally shot him in the leg, I would have kept shooting until I got to center mass and he was down for the count.

    Although it all ended well, he certainly needs to work on his shooting skills.

    Also, if the police or prosecutor wanted to make an issue of shooting him in the leg when it wasn't warranted, I would definitely say I was intending to shoot him center mass. There clearly was a lethal threat in this case since the guy was advancing with a steel pipe making threats.
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  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array BadgerJ's Avatar
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    What is the BG's response, old man I will beat the mess out of you or something of the like. Neighbors response, not likely.
    Here is where he messed up. His response should have been (and it's hard, I know) to go inside, evading the threat and call 911. All the while have his recorder on to document what was going down. If he had done that the BG would have been picked up for transporting across borders, and nobody shot and no one looking to get revenge.

    It's Monday morning quarterbacking, but you do NOT use the HG to give you additional bravado. It never helps. He was not backed into a corner or cowering in a 7-11 or a pharmacy while someone was killing witnesses. It was a TOTALLY voluntary thing that he stayed there and faced the BG and he could have retreated into his house and been safe.

  9. #23
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
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    I have seen newbies on the range basically close their eyes and convulsively fire a gun in the general direction of the target... probably not enjoying, just doing it to "get it over with," or maybe that is all they are capable of at that early level. Point is, maybe this guy was like that. Inexperienced, and didn't really even see whether he hit the guy or not. But ultimately, it doesn't matter, since the objective of stopping the attack was achieved. Hopefully the gentleman can be more prepared if he ever has an encounter in the future, because the next guy might not just go back running after a shot in the leg.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BadgerJ View Post
    Here is where he messed up. His response should have been (and it's hard, I know) to go inside, evading the threat and call 911. All the while have his recorder on to document what was going down. If he had done that the BG would have been picked up for transporting across borders, and nobody shot and no one looking to get revenge.

    It's Monday morning quarterbacking, but you do NOT use the HG to give you additional bravado. It never helps. He was not backed into a corner or cowering in a 7-11 or a pharmacy while someone was killing witnesses. It was a TOTALLY voluntary thing that he stayed there and faced the BG and he could have retreated into his house and been safe.
    911 had already been called. Hence his comment to the guy, that the police were already on their way, you need to move on. The homeowner was on his side porch right by the door to his kitchen. Where do you get the recorder thing from? Do you sit around with a camcorder in your lap while eating breakfast? If so, well I will leave that one alone. What makes you think that the BG would not have tried to get into the home if the homeowner would have gone inside? He did afterall continue towards a person with a handgun.

    I don't know where you live, but Texas is very big on property owner rights. There is no reason you have to back down or cower before using force or deadly force. In fact we have specific wording that failure to retreat may not be considered when using deadly force as long as you have a right to be at whatever place you are using force. Again there is no guarantee that the family would have been safe had they retreated inside.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    I don't know where you live, but Texas is very big on property owner rights. There is no reason you have to back down or cower before using force or deadly force.


    Missouri is the same way. No need to back away when on your property. If I'm faced with a lethal force scenario while standing in my front yard, I'm dealing with it right then and there.
    -Bark'n
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  12. #26
    Member Array Rtfm's Avatar
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    Personally, I dont know the BG got away with a .357 in the leg. Just thinking about that is painful. Don't know how he did that, must have been adrenalin.

    Regardless, I'm sad that it took an incident like this to get CCW, but glad it happened. He deserves a double tap IMHO.

  13. #27
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom Doc View Post
    People shouldn't think that shooting in the leg is such a great way to only *wound*. It can kill pretty fast if you hit the femoral artery.
    I've heard several deputies that I'm comfortable around comment that a shot in the groin or the hip is the best way to stop someone from charging you. Extremely painful, makes it very difficult to walk, and if you're lucky you do nick the femoral artery and everything comes up pluses.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
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  14. #28
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    [QUOTE=TedBeau;1961196]I believe the opinion is that if there were a civil trial brought by the BG, his laywer would ask you, "If you did not feel threatened for your life, making a kill shot neccessary, then why did you feel it was neccessary to shoot my client in the leg, which is still considered deadly force?"[QUOTE]

    Not all states allow a civil trial without a guilty verdict in a criminal trial. I am not sure if this is the case in Texas, but it is in MO.

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