Ohio CCW holder uses firearm in self defense VIDEO

This is a discussion on Ohio CCW holder uses firearm in self defense VIDEO within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Bark'n Just how would you do that, specifically? That's what I was trying to point out above in Post #40. It appeared ...

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  1. #46
    Distinguished Member Array Knightrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    Just how would you do that, specifically? That's what I was trying to point out above in Post #40. It appeared Mr. Fox did try to back away in the video. He even got inside his car to get away from the assailant. It was at that time the assailant pounced. And almost immediately after that, thug #2 joined in the fray.

    Do you turn around and just run away leaving your car around to get pilfered, or do you physically go hands on with him when he hasn't touched you or made any definite threat.

    The bad guy in this case apparently ignored Mr. Fox's wishes to exit the conversation. He was passively resisting Fox's suggestions to go away. So specifically what would you do to end the situation and keep him from encroaching on you. If you lay hands on him, the video surveillance could be interpreted as to show you as the aggressor.

    On the street, in real life, things aren't quite as easy as we would like to think it's going to be while sitting here discussing it as a "hypothetical" situation.

    It's easy to post, I wouldn't do this or I wouldn't do that. But without any specific examples of how, no one gets to benefit from your post.
    No, I'm talking about before he tried to get inside his car. At the point that Fox walked to his car to pump his gas and the BG walked up too him, that should have been the time for Fox to tell the BG to back up If the BG still failed to obey, then a call to 911 would be in order for a person that refuse to leave you alone and is harassing you. Some may argue that at this point, going hands on is an option, and others may even argue that now you have asked the threat to leave you alone and he refuses that you feel that your life is threaten. Back up if need be to keep a safe distance between you and the threat and always have view of the threat along with your surroundings.
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  3. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightrider View Post
    No, I'm talking about before he tried to get inside his car. At the point that Fox walked to his car to pump his gas and the BG walked up too him, that should have been the time for Fox to tell the BG to back up If the BG still failed to obey, then a call to 911 would be in order for a person that refuse to leave you alone and is harassing you. Some may argue that at this point, going hands on is an option, and others may even argue that now you have asked the threat to leave you alone and he refuses that you feel that your life is threaten. Back up if need be to keep a safe distance between you and the threat and always have view of the threat along with your surroundings.
    I agree calling 911 at that point may have been the thing to do. But it's going to take some time for them to get there. They are going to respond much quicker to a shooting call than they are to a harassment call. Hopefully, the dude is going to break off contact, but certainly you should be ready for an immediate physical altercation as well.

    Like you pointed out, some folks are going to say go hands on at that point. I do my best not to go hands on. But I do have some preconceived notions programed for when to go hands on. However, things are extremely dynamic. Again, OC spray likely could have worked as well. Or pulling the fuel nozzle out of the car and holding it pointed at the guy as you tell him, I said "Go Away, we're done here" and let him draw the conclusion on what you are insinuating by pointing the nozzle directly at him.

    There isn't any right or wrong answers. What works to get them to back down without a fight is what the right answer is, but that could be any number of things.

    Certainly where your own personal level of verbal communication skills are going to factor into the equation. For example, I've been through the "Verbal Judo" course that was out about 15 years ago. It is an excellent program and at one time, all of our State Troopers went through it in the academy. I don't know if they still do, but I'm pretty sure it's still part of the program. The text book "Verbal Judo: The Gentle Art of Persuasion" is available at most bookstores and Amazon for something like $15 and I highly recommend it to anyone. But there is a complete course on it, which I took which runs something in the $300 range. That is the program taught in the Highway Patrol Academy. Now your average citizen likely has little knowledge, if any in these kinds of communication skills, but I can tell you, the better a person can communicate, the better off they are. It's obviously nothing which is foolproof, but it is another tool in the toolbox. And it's something which you can reap rewards in other area's of your life as well. For example, the skills learned helps in the work place if you have an overbearing co-worker or boss. Also helps in deescalating verbal arguments with spouses or family members.

    Thanks knightrider for responding to my question.
    TSiWRX likes this.
    -Bark'n
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  4. #48
    Distinguished Member Array Knightrider's Avatar
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    No problem Bark'n!

    And let me assure anyone that is reading this, I'm almost sure that if you whip out the phone right in front of the BG to call 911, one of two things is going to happen, the BG is going to runaway or the BG is going to try to fight you. Odds are is that the BG is just going to run/walk away. But be prepared for a fight.
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  5. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Knightrider View Post
    ...Odds are is that the BG is just going to run/walk away. But be prepared for a fight.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    No, I'm talking about before he tried to get inside his car. At the point that Fox walked to his car to pump his gas and the BG walked up too him, that should have been the time for Fox to tell the BG to back up If the BG still failed to obey, then a call to 911 would be in order for a person that refuse to leave you alone and is harassing you.
    Really? I don't think the world works that way.

    Now, if anyone disagrees with me, please weigh in and correct my misunderstanding. But in the world I inhabit, a cell phone isn't anything more than a cell phone. It doesn't strike fear and terror in the hearts of men. In the video of the attack we're talking about, the entire event - from the initial approach of the BG to the time the defender drives away - takes place in the amount of time it would take you to activate a phone, dial 911, talk to the operator, and summon police.

    During all that time, what will the BG and his accomplice be doing? Standing around working Sudoku puzzles?

    No, in my world, the moment you pull out your phone and look down at it, staring at the screen, the BG will be slapping it out of your hand and laying down some serious whoop-ass on you.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  7. #51
    Senior Member Array Curt58's Avatar
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    Have you guys ever been in that situation?
    I have and in some cases all the talk and phone calls in the workd are not going to deter these two Drugged out Basterds.
    They are not able to think logically. If they were they wouldn't have tried to car jack the guy in a well lit gas station with cameras.
    I'll bet their thoughts are we are going to mess this guy up, steal his ride and be gone before he can get the Cops or reinforcement here. We are so bad ass we are outta here! Nobody messes with us.

    Dialing 911 would have only accelerated their actions. Most of us are always hopeful we can talk our way out of being robbed and possibly killed, but the truth is, you DON"T HAVE THAT PRIVILEDGE of making that choice.

    The Bad guys do. The only choice we have is how are we going to react!
    Fight or flight?
    Live or Die is ultimley not up to you, unless oyu react quickly and stop the threat.

    In this case it took gunpowder to trump the pair of Crack Heads Powder!

    I was stabbed so fast in my case I didn't even have time to reach into my pocket.
    The Punk wanted my money and he was going to take it. And he had the friends to make that happen.
    I wasn't armed with anything more than a pencil and they knew their chances were good they were going to cash in on their plan.

    This Victim here did what most of us would have done and all the Monday Morning Quarterbacking in the World is not going to help you resolve the issue of was it a good shoot. Report back to use when you are able to talk your way out of a Car JAcking and let us pat you on the back.

    I say he should have shot higher and ended the punks career there and then.
    But, I still have some 45 year old issues.
    The guy who robbed me ended up in prison for Murder of three people.
    He didn't stop roibbing because he got my money.
    He kept on until he killed some innocent people!
    Last edited by Curt58; June 25th, 2011 at 11:02 AM.
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  8. #52
    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    All I can think of saying is "ha ha."

  9. #53
    Distinguished Member Array Knightrider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Really? I don't think the world works that way.

    Now, if anyone disagrees with me, please weigh in and correct my misunderstanding. But in the world I inhabit, a cell phone isn't anything more than a cell phone. It doesn't strike fear and terror in the hearts of men. In the video of the attack we're talking about, the entire event - from the initial approach of the BG to the time the defender drives away - takes place in the amount of time it would take you to activate a phone, dial 911, talk to the operator, and summon police.

    During all that time, what will the BG and his accomplice be doing? Standing around working Sudoku puzzles?

    No, in my world, the moment you pull out your phone and look down at it, staring at the screen, the BG will be slapping it out of your hand and laying down some serious whoop-ass on you.
    If you can not dial 911 (or any number for that matter) with your phone without looking at your phone then I can not help you. You call 911 to get a record of what is said on tape, along with getting help on the way. A simple call or even a threat to call the police has deterred crimes from happening. And like I said, if you let the BG get close enough to you for him or her to slap anything out of your hand then you have failed in your training and once again, I can not help you. The main goal at that point is to NOT have the BG get close enough to you to strike. Really, the main goal is to not be in that spot to begin with. BG are cowards and is looking for an easy mark, be aware and the BG would look for someone else.

    Common sense is your best self defense. When I was pushed to draw down on someone, I was in control of the environment, not the BG. Even before I had to pull it, I was still in control of the environment. That is how it should be, never let the BG be in control or else you would be well behind the eight ball.
    Glock: G22 .40 S&W and G23 .40 S&W Sig Sauer: P938 9mm Smith and Wesson: Model 437 .38 Spl, Model 65 357 Mag, and Sigma SW9VE 9mm

  10. #54
    Member Array ericb445's Avatar
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    911 on most cell phones is press and hold 9
    I say the GG did right and what he had to do to stop the beating.

  11. #55
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    In watching the video I have to say that 1 or 2 determined attackers would have been able to keep him away from his gun, hurt him then make off with his car. His size and demeanor coupled with their clouded brain cells most likely gave the attackers a degree of doubt that cost them in the end.

  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array claude clay's Avatar
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    sgb--The victim used very poor situational awareness and failed to institute early evasion or defensive posture, however he did what he had to do when he had to do it and survived.

    adric22--However, I always keep my gun on my person unless I'm going to be driving a long distance, and even then I put it back on before I get out of the car.

    the thread it says he had the Glock in the center console too, so when he was trying to get in they were trying to pull him out,

    which im gonna guess leaves the victim both hands and lots of time to chamber a round. or would it had been EPIC FAIL had he not already had a round chambered?
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  13. #57
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by claude clay
    which im gonna guess leaves the victim both hands and lots of time to chamber a round. or would it had been EPIC FAIL had he not already had a round chambered?
    Claude,
    I think that is virtually impossible to answer unless you are the victim. Unknown if he used one hand to hold himself against the pull of the aggressor, while using the other hand to acquire the weapon. Then chambering a round would be a problem. If he did not use one hand against the aggressor's pull, and had both hands free, then not as much of a problem. Hard to say.
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  14. #58
    VIP Member Array paaiyan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Claude,
    I think that is virtually impossible to answer unless you are the victim. Unknown if he used one hand to hold himself against the pull of the aggressor, while using the other hand to acquire the weapon. Then chambering a round would be a problem. If he did not use one hand against the aggressor's pull, and had both hands free, then not as much of a problem. Hard to say.
    Well he said that carrying chambered saved his life. He was sure that he would have been completely unable to chamber a round and stated as much in the thread on the other forum.
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    Distinguished Member Array TSiWRX's Avatar
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    ^ +1.

    I think that anyone who really wants to discuss this incident owes it to themselves (as well as the OP on OFCC, as a courtesy) to fully groom through that original thread......

    In the thread discussions on OFCC, he did state that he had to use one hand to physically hold himself in the vehicle (to retrieve the weapon from the console? - unknown), while the BG was trying to pull him out of it - and that was both why he was glad he carried with a round chambered (as he also mentioned that with the physical actions involved, he did not think that he wold have been able to chamber a round) and is also, if you read the thread in more detail, the reason why a couple of his friends have switched to carrying in "Condition I."

    I don't want to belabor the point, but since it's being spoken about, I thought I'd come back to clarify. I have select excerpts below:

    Quote Originally Posted by adf8585
    the gun was a glock model 36. carrying with one in the chamber probably saved my life because i was holding myself in the car with my left hand as they were trying to pull me out of the car no way i could have racked the slide.
    Quote Originally Posted by adf8585
    it was in the middle console did not have it on me. stupid mistake
    Quote Originally Posted by adf8585
    Quote Originally Posted by FormerNavy
    I normally carry IWB somewhere between 3 o'clock and 4 o'clock and am wondering how difficult it would have been to draw my firearm under these circumstances, being pulled at from behind, etc...
    i usually use a cross breed supertuck at about the 5 oclock position. if i would have been carrying like that at the time probably would not have been able to draw my weapon. at the 3 or 4 oclock position i believe i could have drawn my weapon
    It is my firm belief that every incident is a fluid, dynamic, experience - I don't like to armchair quarterback, but I do like to ask the "what ifs" of the situation, in the hopes that I would be able to learn from others' speculation, experiences-towards-the-same, and/or explanations.

    My questions/observations are based on the following:

    - always use good SD/HD ammo: going to shoot some at the range? find, but bring enough with you to top-off that magazine with, before you turn your back to the range that day

    - that adf, by a stroke of luck, actually, wasn't wearing his pistol where he usually does - at the 5'o-clock, where he speculated that he could not have accessed his weapon, during that moment in the fight

    - that there is virtually no way of making absolutely positive that any of our chosen carry methods/position would be compromised, given any particular situation or another (thus leading to one comment in the thread, by one of our members, about having a second gun in the car, in the console/similar)

    - that the fact that his firearm was in the center console may in-turn give him more legal protection for this shooting, as adf being physically inside his vehicle means that he is covered under our (Ohio's) Castle Doctrine and that whether his ingress into the vehicle was, initially, to leave the gas station or to retrieve the firearm, it should (regardless of what the Castle Doctrine mitigates) also satisfy his "Duty to Retreat" under our laws

    - but at the same time, adf regrets that he left his protection inside the center console to begin with: which could have cost him dearly, had the assault on his person occurred earlier in the timeline and/or outside of his vehicle - as well as brings to mind my question: what would have happened had the two offenders gained access/possession of adf's vehicle (as Ohio's car-carry laws will change under SB17, many of us are considering dedicated car-mounts/holsters: so this particular lesson illustrated to me the importance of keeping to the discipline of properly rearming or otherwise securing the pistol as one exits)

    In my mind, the way I see it, adf did everything right. In the moment, he made "right enough" calls that allowed him - the good guy - to go home to his loved ones, with little to no injuries.

    Certainly, there's room for improvement, but I think it's something we can all learn from.

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    Can someone link me to their Facebook page?

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