Bad day in Norway
This is a discussion on Bad day in Norway within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Very sad.
These thing are virtually not preventable, the best that can be hoped for is mitigation of the damage, whether by LE or citizens. ...
July 25th, 2011 03:15 PM
These thing are virtually not preventable, the best that can be hoped for is mitigation of the damage, whether by LE or citizens. A lala land attitude either by the government or the citizens impedes that mitigation.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
July 25th, 2011 04:09 PM
Apparently Brevik attempted to initially procure weapons in Prague. The Czech Republic has some of the most lax gun laws in Europe. He failed. He couldn't get a single one. Apparently he was going on a BBC News report that said the Czech Republic was a great place to get a gun illegally and was quite dangerous to boot. He stated he felt safer in Prague than Oslo.
Prague has one of the lowest crime rates among all of the European capitals.
July 25th, 2011 04:23 PM
Scary stuff, as I am about to embark and work at a camp next week. "Gun Free Zones" need to end.
July 25th, 2011 06:10 PM
I personally believe that in todays society any activity where there is a group of people,especially kids there need to be a trained armed/concealed presence to be able to stop the threat as soon as possible,I would be 100% in favor of school teachers willing to get training to be able to carry to protect the students that parents entrust to them every day
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
July 25th, 2011 06:43 PM
Agreed! Additional to their firearms training, they should have several emergency weapon biometric safes located strategically around the school to be used in the case of a shootout. Something like an emergency fire extinguisher, AED or first-aid kit, but obviously with better security and much more concealed. I would feel a lot safer to drop my kids everyday in such a school.
Originally Posted by dukalmighty
"If you carry a gun, people will call you paranoid. That's ridiculous... If I have a gun, what in the hell do I have to be paranoid for?" [Clint Smith - Thunder Ranch]
July 27th, 2011 04:35 AM
Does anybody have an accurate list of the make, model, and caliber that this clown used? The media has been all over the lot.
George H. Foster
July 27th, 2011 07:35 AM
This is what happens when a person with a Gun, goes up against People/Police without Guns.
Find me on Google Plus in Firearms
July 27th, 2011 08:04 AM
While some staff at a school should be trained and ready, there should be nothing to slow down a quick response like some type of safe. Especially not a bio-metric one. Stuff like that fails. I know, I work with technology, and I don't like the idea of relying on it in an emergency situation. Simpler is safer.
Originally Posted by alachner
It's better to have people who are trained to respond to a bad situation. I'm not saying police level training necessarily, but more advanced self defense training at any rate.
Most teachers are not the kind of people who will be able to respond properly in this type of scenario. That's not their personality type. I wouldn't want the majority of teachers I know, and work with, to be armed without some serious range and class time on gun use and response. Choosing to be armed is a huge responsibility that people need to step up and make on their own. In an instance like this one where a very determined, and skilled BG, goes nuts the likelihood of a single person responding to end the threat goes way down. This isn't the typical BG situation where they only the point and shoot nature of a gun.
Please don't take this as a knock on teachers either. They are a dedicated and good group of people. It's just that they have to live in a more idealized version of society to keep coming to work every day, and 90-95% of them have had very little exposure to firearms from where I live. I live in Wisconsin, and that fact amazes me.
July 27th, 2011 03:30 PM
I agree with Sfury. Teachers, the majority that I know(n), tend to be anti-gun types. Unlike, airline pilots, many of whom are former military.
July 27th, 2011 06:50 PM
That's the really sad part - kids on an island being picked off by some lunatic, some shot in the water as they tried to get away - or too exhausted to make it tried to get back to shore and got killed in the water - and this was going on a full hour and a half without help! Must have been an absolute nightmare for them.
Originally Posted by aznav
And the police DRIVE to the near mainland and BORROW boats from civilians! And this is the Capital City? My god, I've lived in NYC, they'd have an a whole army of men, boats, helicopters, EMTs and divers to help victims in the water - and Swat teams and Anti-Terror Units all OVER the place - in 5 minutes. I've seen this in action, really unbelievable.
But DRIVING for 45 min!
And what about civilians on the mainland - I know some tried to get there by boat and were driven back - but didn't some have rifles - think of what some guys in boats - half way across and not moving in more (understandably) - could do with two or three high-powered rifles with good scopes - even from a boat - could at least keep the killer down or away from the water line.
They gotta change. They've had a taste of the real world unfortunately. It's not the 19th Century anymore....
I mean remember when that plane went down in the Hudson, not the same thing, but there was whole streets nearby full of first responders, divers, police boats --- and then all those civilian boats - like it was all trained for - making for the plane 2 minutes after it was down and taking people off the wings. I must say, watching all that was very moving - police and civilian alike saving the day - AND of course that masterful pilot. Felt like the America of old. (And now I see that circus of fools in Washington, making our country the laughing stock of the world - and want to vomit! Where are the Americans !?)
So, the whole response in Norway really leaves a bad-taste for me. I don't know....it's confusing, maybe I'm being too harsh...
July 28th, 2011 01:53 PM
That was the thing that amazed me the most. You would think most of the victums would have been able to get out of visible range in the first 10 minutes. Is this island that small that there was no place to hide?
Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott
July 28th, 2011 11:25 PM
I grew up in Norway and have been following this case closely so I just wanted to chime in since there are some things that have been posted in this thread that is not correct, and a few things that I don't agree with.
NYC has about twice the number of people of Norway and you cannot compare NYC with Oslo. Although the police in Oslo has a helicopter, it's a small one not suited for missions like this. I believe it only holds 4 people. How many of you guys have a police helicopter in your town? Is it sitting ready 24/7 with the pre-check already done and with all tactics for whatever the mission is? I don't think so. I know my town doesn't have one. They did have problems with the boats, but it didn't slow them down much since they were met with other boats that were actually faster than the one the police brought (I believe it was a RIB). I agree they got lucky there since this could have gone a lot worse if there were no other boats available.
Regarding being armed in Norway, you are right that you do not have the right to carry there, but I don't think it would have made much difference in this case. I A friend of mine (here in the US) is a leader at a boy's scout similar in size to the event in Norway this week, and there are no armed security guards there either and I don't think it's common for anyone to be armed at events like this. If the boys scout would find out a leader was carrying a gun, I think there is a good chance he would be sent home if anyone found out.
Yes, it's a very small island, 26 acres, and 700 kids. The shooter was dressed as police, and many kids first thought he was there to provide security due to the bombing in Oslo.
The response time was not 90 minutes. The shooter was arrested 1 hour after the Oslo police was notified, and that includes the drive by car and boat. Some people think that the SWAT would have handled this in no time, but I don't know if I agree with that. The time line at the Columbine shooting was the following:
11:19 the attack starts
12:00 Swat arrives (I do not know how far they had to travel, but I don't think they took a helicopter)
12:20 a call for additional ammo was made....
13:09 Swat enters the building
15:30 Harris and Klebold were found dead
Source: Columbine High School massacre - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
That's over 4 hours, and SWAT waited outside for over 1 hour before they entered the building and I think most of the criticism of the Oslo Police is not justified. However, I think that after this event, the police will get more resources to handle incidents like this (they claim they are understaffed). It's only a few months ago that another Special Forces (part of the National Guard) that was supposed to provide security for the government etc. was closed down due to lack of funding. I sure hope the politicians in Norway will get their act together and re-establish this organization since they certainly can afford it. Take some of the money they spend on welfare and mosques and provide security for the people is my advice.
I don't think this shooting will do anything for gun-rights in Norway since most people will scream for more gun control. However, I don't think this will make Norway any safer. The shooter had a clean record and the guns were legally bought and registered to the best of my knowledge.
Some of you might be interested in knowing that the longest prison sentence in Norway is 21 years... However, he can be sentenced to a "Secure" sentence, meaning that if he is determined to be a threat, they can keep him locked up indefinitely, which is very likely to be the case here if he is found mentally competent.
July 28th, 2011 11:29 PM
"The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left." Eccl. 10:2
July 29th, 2011 09:02 AM
The thing with Columbine, is that it changed how police respond in the US. The response to that situation was so bad, because the police there (and in most of the US) were not prepared to rapidly respond. It was not something that was aggressively taught to officers then like it is now. Columbine was one of those watershed moments in US history that precipitated great change.
One thing that should be mentioned is officer response time. In relatively dense populated areas our police force responds within 20 minutes. Do we have helicopters? Not necessarily, but most regions in the US don't have islands without bridges allowing easier access. If we don't, then we have the means to quickly traverse across waterways. Whether that be through the Coast Guard, or through privately owned boats by the local LEOs. Many jurisdictions that have to cover an island without road access do own choppers to get to those places. Worse comes to worse, many local municipalities have the authority to commandeer private boats (they usually need to pay for the use later) in emergency situations.
While it is true, LE agencies are not required to save individuals, it still is their business to respond and attempt to help everyone in their territory. The LEOs have to have the means to do that in some timely manner.
Many agencies now voluntarily cover larger gatherings with a police presence, or require the gathering to pay for the police presence. Precisely to prevent situations like the one in Norway from getting that out of hand. It's become common practice in recent times. Even at BSA, Boy Scouts of America, gatherings. For places like the camp on the island, the day to day dealings will not have any LEO presence, but if there is a larger gathering, then one will be there.
America has been evolving into a more pragmatic nation when it comes to using common sense with regards to security and large gatherings. That does nothing for small gatherings like the one Congressman Gifford was holding though.
What can't be done is stopping those type of individuals from attacking, but the response to those incidents can be changed. Humans can adapt and act responsibly after all.
July 29th, 2011 03:19 PM
1. Considering the 21 year limit, is it possible for the sentences to be run consecutively? He certainly killed enough people to do 21 year stretches until he dies.
2. Suppose there was a target shooting event on the island. What is the sense of the people if a target rifle had been used to shoot the gunman? I understand that using a firearm in self defense is frowned upon in most of Europe.
"Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18
Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
Paramedics With Guns Scare People!
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