Bad day in Norway
This is a discussion on Bad day in Norway within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I'm not Mandalitten, but I believe that the way that works is that he must be brought back to court every five years, and get ...
July 29th, 2011 04:05 PM
I'm not Mandalitten, but I believe that the way that works is that he must be brought back to court every five years, and get a five year extension. This has to be done until he is dead. Will they do this? Who knows. I don't know what the justification is for Norway's legal system, but I'd be interested in hearing it, because I really don't understand it.
In most of Europe, SD with a firearm is frowned upon, but I think in this case even the most bleeding heart liberal prosecutor would not give the SD shooter a hard time. I know if I was in that situation, I'd take the shot, damn the consequences. The alternative is letting a lot of kids be slaughtered because I don't want to get arrested and possibly go to jail.
July 29th, 2011 04:05 PM
July 29th, 2011 09:22 PM
I agree that Columbine changed the response time for the better, and I am sure the incident will change Norway in many ways. It's unfortunate that something tragic has to happen first though. Norway (or any other country I can think of) has never seen anything even close to this, and it's one of those things that is very difficult to be prepared for.
I do not think the sentences can be served consecutively. I am sure that if there had been a firearm for target practice on the island that had been used in self defense; it would have been allowed to be used. Self Defense is a Right in Norway, and most other countries (not all...), and you can use any means to defend yourself, including a firearm. The problem is that you cannot be licensed to carry a firearm on your person in public, so it really only applies in your home or somewhere else you can legally carry a firearm (at the range, while hunting, etc.). I have had discussions with other Norwegians (gun owners) in person and on a military forum about it and pretty much nobody wants RKBA. I was surprised to realize this, especially on a military forum. Part of the reason is that there is a big mis-conception about carrying guns in Norway since every time there is a shooting in the US they hear about it. They don't understand that RKBA doesn't give you the right to use your firearm whenever you want to end a dispute. Using a firearm is only the last resort and it's your burden of proof to show that your life was in imminent danger. If someone break into your house in Norway and your life is in danger, I doubt you will be convicted, but it will obviously depend on the actual circumstances just like it would in the US.
Paul34, you are right about the 5 years. This is from the Wikipedia:
The "containment" is relatively new (passed in 2002) as you can see, and although I have heard of people getting the sentence, nobody has probably been up review yet since they have to serve at least 10 years. I would rather see a real life sentence at the time of sentencing myself...
There is no sentence of life imprisonment in Norwegian law. There is however an indeterminate penalty that could in principle result in life imprisonment, but there are no examples of such after the latest correctional law passed in 2002. There are basically two types of maximum penalty laws:
The maximum determinate penalty is 21 years imprisonment, but only a small percentage of prisoners serve more than 14 years. Prisoners will typically get unsupervised parole for weekends etc. after serving ⅓ of their sentence (a maximum of 7 years) and can receive early release after serving ⅔ of their sentence (a maximum of 14 years). In 2008, to fulfill its requirements under the Rome Statute, Norway created a new maximal penalty of 30 years for crimes against humanity.
The maximum indeterminate penalty, called "containment" (Norwegian: forvaring), is also set at 21 years imprisonment, and the prisoner is required to serve at least 10 years before becoming eligible for parole. "Containment" is used when the prisoner is deemed a danger to society and there is a great chance of committing violent crimes in the future. If the prisoner is still considered dangerous after serving the original sentence, the prisoner can receive up to five years additional containment. If the additional time is served, and the offender is still considered dangerous, a prisoner can continue to receive up to five years additional containment, and this, in theory, could result in actual life imprisonment. However, the offender can be paroled or released at any time if it is determined that the offender is no longer a danger to society.
On the bright side, I think he will be on trial and convicted relatively quickly. It's a little different than here where high profile cases can drag out for years before someone is put on trial and sentenced (like the Casey Anthony case). He has already admitted what he did, but he is pleading Not Guilty to any crimes.... There is always a chance that he can plead insanity. I read part of his 1500 page manifesto, written in English, and he appears to be an intelligent person and even though most people would say there is something seriously wrong with this person, I doubt it will qualify as insanity. However, I do not know what the definition of "insanity" is in the Norwegian court. There was just so much hate that had been building up over many years that made him do what he did.
July 30th, 2011 12:19 AM
It's very rare that someone get the max sentence in Norway. Arne Treholt was convicted to 20 years for treason in the 80s (spying for the Russians), but the government pardoned him after 7-8 years. Even after a high profile bank robbery (Nokas) in 2004 where a police officer was shot and killed with a fully automatic Hk G3, nobody got 21 years. However, some got the "containment" sentence even if it the sentence was under 21 years.
To my knowledge only one person has gotten the max sentence of 21 years, plus containment. That was Viggo Kristiansen who with Jan Helge Andersen raped and killed two 8 and 10 year old girls.
So, it's fair to say that generally speaking prison sentences are very lenient in Norway and most are let out long time before they have served their full sentence. The system is geared more towards sending the criminals to rehab and try to get them back out in society as law abiding citizens and keep them out of prison.
July 30th, 2011 01:44 AM
I want to be respectful of your position and life-expereince, yet at the same time, I still think that Norway, and a few other European nations have unfortunately had a rather naive attitude about terroristic acts of violence. There has been some subtle smugness that expresses itself in an often unspoken attitude that says: "Well, the United Stattes is a violent place, what else can you expect? But we know that those things will not happen here." It may not be said, but it certainly seems to be the underlying assumptions about present reality in some European nations.
We host short-term exchange students several times a year--they come to us to learn Natural Horsemanship and we take them on cattle drives, rides in the mountains, etc. These students live in our home 24/7 and we hear this basic philosophy/world view on a regular basis as guns, America and self-defense issues get discussed.
The entire world is a crazy place these days, and there is NO SAFE PLACE. I grant you, that you will likely be more safe in Oslo than Detriot, or Manhattan,Montana versus Manhatten, NY; but still, I come back to the principe that the mind-set of "it can't happen here" is one that NOBODY in positions of responsibility can afford to maintain.
Scott, US Army 1974-2004
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan
July 30th, 2011 04:19 AM
Now I know why the POS was smiling as he was being transported in the Police Car,In a few years with good behaviour he will be allowed to live in a society where he killed over 90 people most of them children,I will say if It was one of my kids or Relatives,I would be waiting for the day he is released so I could meet him in person and hear him beg for mercy as I cut his throat,Something tells me they would be hard pressed to find any witnesses,or really try very hard to
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
July 30th, 2011 08:05 AM
Chaplain Scott, that's a sentiment the foreign exchange students (from all over) have been expressing since the 90s when I started interacting/working with them at the high school level as well. There has long been a misperception that America is a violent place with gun battles happening all over. The reality is, America has lower crime rates than many European countries, and the students from abroad are often amazed at how peaceful, and boring, American life really is.
Especially the Japanese ones. I've never understood why the Japanese think America is far more violent than other nations do, but they do. On the other hand, students from the African nations tend to not think of America has overly violent due to the violence that they either live in, or are surrounded by. It's interesting hearing about life in other places. It always makes me appreciate living where I do a bit more.
July 30th, 2011 10:36 AM
I agree with you that many European nations have been naive when it comes to terrorism since only a few of them have a history of terrorist attacks. England had their fair share in the 80s from IRA, Spain has had their share as well, but they have been much smaller. At least until the London bus bombings (not the IRA) and train bombings in Madrid. I think most nations in Europe are more aware now, and there have been several planned attacks that have been stopped, even one in Norway a couple of years ago. This attack was a little different since it was homegrown, one of our own, with no criminal background and even today it doesn't look like he had help from others, even though he communicated with others with his ideology.
I am glad you have foreign exchange students and teach them REAL American values, including self defense and guns. Like I mentioned in post# 47, I think there is a big misconception about the US and guns in the rest of the world. I live in RI now and my sister and her family visited me for a week earlier this month and I know they don't share my views on guns. However, I still carried when we were together and I don't think she even knew since I am sure she would have said something. That's how most law abiding citizens carry guns in the US: concealed.
dukealmighty, the number has been adjusted to 76. With the containment sentence in Norway I don't think he will ever be let out.
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