Good: "10 years later, opposition to concealed guns fades"

[Sheldon J]

Two different spins on the same story, both good here in Mi...

from 10 years later, opposition to concealed guns fades | mlive.com

and from 10 years after concealed weapons law, unclear why many in state were gun-shy | Detroit Free Press | freep.com


Copy writen material so just a short quote, read it at the above links...

IONIA, Mich. (AP) — Ten years after Michigan expanded the right of law-abiding adults to carry firearms, some of those who opposed the change say the dangers they feared didn't come to pass.

and

Ten years after Michigan made it much easier for its citizens to get a license to carry a concealed gun, predictions of widespread lawless behavior and bloodshed have failed to materialize.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[ArkhmAsylm]

"Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said he has always been a proponent of people being able to protect themselves. The troublemakers, generally, aren't the people who go through the process to legally own and carry a gun -- it's the people who carry illegally who cause problems, he said."

Well, that sounds like common sense!

[Freedom Doc]

So the news media wonders what is going on, why isn't there a bloodbath, or on the other hand, why doesn't the crime rate go down in response to responsible people getting a gun permit?
Well, some places I think the crime rate HAS gone down, but it is tough to prove it has anything to do with shall issue CCW. What the news media needs to do (if going after the TRUTH, which doesn't seem to be what they are after) is to look carefully at the folks who get a license to carry. Are we people who do stupid things with stupid people at stupid times? No, we are mostly honest citizens who want to be left alone and have a right to be left alone and wish to enforce that right, to the extent possible. We try to AVOID bad situations, and we mostly are good at
watching our surroundings and seeing what is happening, mostly again to avoid if possible. When bad guys are looking for victims, they see us (armed citizens) looking around and watching, and they tend to leave us alone. There are easier victims to be had! So as far as us actually using a gun for self-defense, that is just going to be RARE.

I guess this just doesn't sell many papers.

[Sheldon J]

Actually Doc our crime rate has gone down....

[Freedom Doc]

Perhaps so. I tend to think ours has also (at least violent crime). Of course any attempt to say this in public (where everyone can read it) generally gets met with knee jerk anti type reaction, where actual communication goes out the window. And anyhow, even if you could come up with facts and figures and reasoning to support it, it is tough to discount (or appropriately count) other possible reasons for decline. I'm happy with sticking to the line that says the crime rate has NOT gone up due to concealed carry, and might even have gone down slightly, so it certainly works better than any anti-gun approach ever did. I think if a whole lot more responsible people would get a CCW and actually carry, we could see a real dip in crime. Why they don't is a mystery to me (especially the ones who always carry a spare tire or a fire-extinguisher)...

[adric22]

I think if a whole lot more responsible people would get a CCW and actually carry, we could see a real dip in crime. Why they don't is a mystery to me (especially the ones who always carry a spare tire or a fire-extinguisher)...

I suspect the reason has more to do with money than anything else. I know it varies a bit from state to state, but around here it is going to run the average person around $350 to get licensed. If it is a couple going together, then the cost is around $700. Then add in the cost of the gun itself, a holster, and the time and fees practicing at the range, and the cost of the ammo to practice with, etc. A person can easily spend in excess of $1,000 per person just so that they can carry a gun. A lot of people would just rather spend that cash on something else like food, a car payment, etc. It is especially difficult for younger couples to fit that into the budget.

[Freedom Doc]

That point is well-taken, especially here in OK and in TX, where it is a bit high. Pennsylvania has it much cheaper ($15 for the license IIRC). But in these hard economic times it will be tough to address lowering these fees...

[Inspector71]

You mean the streets are not flowing with blood yet??

[Harryball]

You mean the streets are not flowing with blood yet??

Not yet, but wait for it......any minute now......LMAO

[Fitch]

That point is well-taken, especially here in OK and in TX, where it is a bit high. Pennsylvania has it much cheaper ($15 for the license IIRC). But in these hard economic times it will be tough to address lowering these fees...

I just paid $28 to renew mine in PA. We have no training required to get a CCL. We do have mandatory training (provided free to all who want it by the PA game comission) to get a hunting license that includes common sense gun safety training. PA has a huge percentage of the population as licensed hunters. That said, based on the work of John Lott, there is no statistical evidence that requiring training makes any difference at all.

I read several books by Ayoob and others, and after packing for a couple of years and making monthly trips to the range, started shooting Action Pistol, then dropped that and started shooting IDPA once a month when it isn't too cold.

I've also taken up varmint hunting. I realize I'm not packing my varmint rifle, but I think the experience helps (got two this morning, one at 204 yards, one at 184 yards).

Every time I run into an anti that predicts gloom and doom I point out that Vermont has had unlicensed concealed carry for over 100 years and what they predict just plain didn't happen and isn't happening.

Fitch

[adric22]

Every time I run into an anti that predicts gloom and doom I point out that Vermont has had unlicensed concealed carry for over 100 years and what they predict just plain didn't happen and isn't happening.

I've encountered many conversations lately regarding Texas' new law that goes into effect on Sept 1. It will allow any person who can legally own a gun to carry that gun in their car to work and leave it in the parking lot. No CHL required. Some people I've talked to about this are just in total fear now that some crazy person will come into their work and start shooting up the place because they were allowed to bring the gun onto company property. I've tried to explain that any such person who was planning to bring a gun in and shoot up the place probably wouldn't have been deterred by the old law (or what is law currently) and probably already carries their gun to work anyway. So in reality it changes very little.

[Pinger]

Responding to the cost of getting a CPL here in MI: yes, it easily cost me over $1,000, all told. The firearm, the holster, the ammo, the paperwork, the training, it all adds up. I'm one of those who always keeps the fire extinguisher and extra flashlight etc. around (I was a Boy Scout after all..."Be Prepared"); even for me the cost of a CPL seemed prohibitive. There always seemed something else that my family needed more. What finally put me over the top and on the road to getting my CPL was the realization of just how violent society has become, and I do have that obligation to protect my family wherever we go.

[GrandBob]

Good: "10 years later, opposition to concealed guns fades"

Although it may take some time, the TRUTH always wins out in the end...

Lies,suppositions and deliberate distortment of statistics just wont stand up in the face of the facts.

[joe26]

I just suggest to people before they going crazy about a new law, look to states that have it already(if there are any) and see if they are having any major problems. I pretty much do the same thing myself.

[Sheldon J]

That point is well-taken, especially here in OK and in TX, where it is a bit high. Pennsylvania has it much cheaper ($15 for the license IIRC). But in these hard economic times it will be tough to address lowering these fees...

Here in MI 8 hour (required for first license) training class is about $150. A 5 year license is a little over a hundred bucks. Add range time, so $300. is not unrealistic...

And there have be a few (very few) stories of a lowered crime rate since the introduction, and how less than a tenth of a percentile of permit holders have had theirs revoked due to criminal acts...