Good: "10 years later, opposition to concealed guns fades"

Good: "10 years later, opposition to concealed guns fades"

This is a discussion on Good: "10 years later, opposition to concealed guns fades" within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Two different spins on the same story, both good here in Mi... from 10 years later, opposition to concealed guns fades | mlive.com and from ...

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Thread: Good: "10 years later, opposition to concealed guns fades"

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Wink Good: "10 years later, opposition to concealed guns fades"

    Two different spins on the same story, both good here in Mi...

    from 10 years later, opposition to concealed guns fades | mlive.com

    and from 10 years after concealed weapons law, unclear why many in state were gun-shy | Detroit Free Press | freep.com


    Copy writen material so just a short quote, read it at the above links...


    IONIA, Mich. (AP) — Ten years after Michigan expanded the right of law-abiding adults to carry firearms, some of those who opposed the change say the dangers they feared didn't come to pass.
    and

    Ten years after Michigan made it much easier for its citizens to get a license to carry a concealed gun, predictions of widespread lawless behavior and bloodshed have failed to materialize.
    OD*, adric22 and pistola like this.
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    "Oakland County Sheriff Michael Bouchard said he has always been a proponent of people being able to protect themselves. The troublemakers, generally, aren't the people who go through the process to legally own and carry a gun -- it's the people who carry illegally who cause problems, he said."
    Well, that sounds like common sense!
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    So the news media wonders what is going on, why isn't there a bloodbath, or on the other hand, why doesn't the crime rate go down in response to responsible people getting a gun permit?
    Well, some places I think the crime rate HAS gone down, but it is tough to prove it has anything to do with shall issue CCW. What the news media needs to do (if going after the TRUTH, which doesn't seem to be what they are after) is to look carefully at the folks who get a license to carry. Are we people who do stupid things with stupid people at stupid times? No, we are mostly honest citizens who want to be left alone and have a right to be left alone and wish to enforce that right, to the extent possible. We try to AVOID bad situations, and we mostly are good at
    watching our surroundings and seeing what is happening, mostly again to avoid if possible. When bad guys are looking for victims, they see us (armed citizens) looking around and watching, and they tend to leave us alone. There are easier victims to be had! So as far as us actually using a gun for self-defense, that is just going to be RARE.

    I guess this just doesn't sell many papers.
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Actually Doc our crime rate has gone down....
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

  5. #5
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    Perhaps so. I tend to think ours has also (at least violent crime). Of course any attempt to say this in public (where everyone can read it) generally gets met with knee jerk anti type reaction, where actual communication goes out the window. And anyhow, even if you could come up with facts and figures and reasoning to support it, it is tough to discount (or appropriately count) other possible reasons for decline. I'm happy with sticking to the line that says the crime rate has NOT gone up due to concealed carry, and might even have gone down slightly, so it certainly works better than any anti-gun approach ever did. I think if a whole lot more responsible people would get a CCW and actually carry, we could see a real dip in crime. Why they don't is a mystery to me (especially the ones who always carry a spare tire or a fire-extinguisher)...
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

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    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom Doc View Post
    I think if a whole lot more responsible people would get a CCW and actually carry, we could see a real dip in crime. Why they don't is a mystery to me (especially the ones who always carry a spare tire or a fire-extinguisher)...
    I suspect the reason has more to do with money than anything else. I know it varies a bit from state to state, but around here it is going to run the average person around $350 to get licensed. If it is a couple going together, then the cost is around $700. Then add in the cost of the gun itself, a holster, and the time and fees practicing at the range, and the cost of the ammo to practice with, etc. A person can easily spend in excess of $1,000 per person just so that they can carry a gun. A lot of people would just rather spend that cash on something else like food, a car payment, etc. It is especially difficult for younger couples to fit that into the budget.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  7. #7
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    That point is well-taken, especially here in OK and in TX, where it is a bit high. Pennsylvania has it much cheaper ($15 for the license IIRC). But in these hard economic times it will be tough to address lowering these fees...
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

  8. #8
    Senior Member Array Inspector71's Avatar
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    You mean the streets are not flowing with blood yet??


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    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Inspector71 View Post
    You mean the streets are not flowing with blood yet??

    Not yet, but wait for it......any minute now......LMAO
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

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    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom Doc View Post
    That point is well-taken, especially here in OK and in TX, where it is a bit high. Pennsylvania has it much cheaper ($15 for the license IIRC). But in these hard economic times it will be tough to address lowering these fees...
    I just paid $28 to renew mine in PA. We have no training required to get a CCL. We do have mandatory training (provided free to all who want it by the PA game comission) to get a hunting license that includes common sense gun safety training. PA has a huge percentage of the population as licensed hunters. That said, based on the work of John Lott, there is no statistical evidence that requiring training makes any difference at all.

    I read several books by Ayoob and others, and after packing for a couple of years and making monthly trips to the range, started shooting Action Pistol, then dropped that and started shooting IDPA once a month when it isn't too cold.

    I've also taken up varmint hunting. I realize I'm not packing my varmint rifle, but I think the experience helps (got two this morning, one at 204 yards, one at 184 yards).

    Every time I run into an anti that predicts gloom and doom I point out that Vermont has had unlicensed concealed carry for over 100 years and what they predict just plain didn't happen and isn't happening.

    Fitch
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety), by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” by H. L. Mencken

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fitch View Post
    Every time I run into an anti that predicts gloom and doom I point out that Vermont has had unlicensed concealed carry for over 100 years and what they predict just plain didn't happen and isn't happening.
    I've encountered many conversations lately regarding Texas' new law that goes into effect on Sept 1. It will allow any person who can legally own a gun to carry that gun in their car to work and leave it in the parking lot. No CHL required. Some people I've talked to about this are just in total fear now that some crazy person will come into their work and start shooting up the place because they were allowed to bring the gun onto company property. I've tried to explain that any such person who was planning to bring a gun in and shoot up the place probably wouldn't have been deterred by the old law (or what is law currently) and probably already carries their gun to work anyway. So in reality it changes very little.
    "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." -Plato

  12. #12
    Member Array Pinger's Avatar
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    Responding to the cost of getting a CPL here in MI: yes, it easily cost me over $1,000, all told. The firearm, the holster, the ammo, the paperwork, the training, it all adds up. I'm one of those who always keeps the fire extinguisher and extra flashlight etc. around (I was a Boy Scout after all..."Be Prepared"); even for me the cost of a CPL seemed prohibitive. There always seemed something else that my family needed more. What finally put me over the top and on the road to getting my CPL was the realization of just how violent society has become, and I do have that obligation to protect my family wherever we go.
    The first rule of self-defense is to avoid the situation. The second rule is Train and Prepare.

  13. #13
    Member Array GrandBob's Avatar
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    Good: "10 years later, opposition to concealed guns fades"

    Although it may take some time, the TRUTH always wins out in the end...

    Lies,suppositions and deliberate distortment of statistics just wont stand up in the face of the facts.

  14. #14
    Member Array joe26's Avatar
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    I just suggest to people before they going crazy about a new law, look to states that have it already(if there are any) and see if they are having any major problems. I pretty much do the same thing myself.

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Sheldon J's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Freedom Doc View Post
    That point is well-taken, especially here in OK and in TX, where it is a bit high. Pennsylvania has it much cheaper ($15 for the license IIRC). But in these hard economic times it will be tough to address lowering these fees...
    Here in MI 8 hour (required for first license) training class is about $150. A 5 year license is a little over a hundred bucks. Add range time, so $300. is not unrealistic...

    And there have be a few (very few) stories of a lowered crime rate since the introduction, and how less than a tenth of a percentile of permit holders have had theirs revoked due to criminal acts...
    "The sword dose not cause the murder, and the maker of the sword dose not bear sin" Rabbi Solomon ben Isaac 11th century

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