Armed Robbery of a Yogurt Shop - Page 2

Armed Robbery of a Yogurt Shop

This is a discussion on Armed Robbery of a Yogurt Shop within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by smolck Let's say I do shoot him and he dies and he is a kid with a "fake gun". Am I on ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    Let's say I do shoot him and he dies and he is a kid with a "fake gun". Am I on the stand for murder? (even though state law says I can use my gun to stop a robbery?) And what if it is real and he ends up killing one of the clerks and I took off, how do I sleep then?
    No you are not. Fake gun, real gun, in the eyes of the law, it is still considered an armed robbery and still considered a deadly threat.

    The law does not require you (during the "heat of the moment") to determine if it is a real gun or not in the face of what is obviously reasonable fear of immediate and otherwise avoidable death or grave bodily harm.

    There's plenty of case law to support that.

    If it turned out to be a fake gun... well, sucks to be him.
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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array Spade115's Avatar
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    My concern would be you waiting and stalking him to come back so you can pop him.

    What if he decides to walk around the building first see you waiting and if it is a real gun shoot you?
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spade115 View Post
    My concern would be you waiting and stalking him to come back so you can pop him.

    What if he decides to walk around the building first see you waiting and if it is a real gun shoot you?
    Why would he do that? I understand running through all the "what if" scenarios, but there comes a point where some of the "what if's" just aren't plausible. Say, he exited out the back door. I can guarantee, he's going to be long gone.

    Criminals may not be the smartest people in the world, but most of them aren't total idiots either. People who perform armed robberies for a living know that every second they spend in the store (beyond what is absolutely necessary), increases their risk of being caught or have bad things happen.

    Once he leaves the building, why on earth would he want to circle back around to the front and see if someone now has a gun and is waiting to ambush him?
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  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    This one puzzles me. I am honestly at a loss. Since I want to prepare myself for anything that can happen I am curious why some of you say you wouldn't have drawn and fired? The BG seemed to ignore the man and child, and when he went in the back I have the opportunity to set up to ambush him when he comes back through. I dunno, that is a tough one.

    Let's say I do shoot him and he dies and he is a kid with a "fake gun". Am I on the stand for murder? (even though state law says I can use my gun to stop a robbery?) And what if it is real and he ends up killing one of the clerks and I took off, how do I sleep then?
    In this scenario, with a child, you are better off running out. You are right, he didnt pay much attention to them, thats a good thing. Thats why you run out. Less paper work that way...
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  5. #20
    Senior Member Array Spade115's Avatar
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    I would think professional criminals would be long gone because they have done this befor his car was probably parked somewhere infront where it would be easy to get to if people saw.

    It could of been he decided to take off through the back to make people think he's leaving somewhere through a back alley and double back to his vehicle parked while removing his hoodie and spot the guy waiting with a gun. Some people no matter how you try and think about it might not have too much reason.

    While your thinking your going to wait till he comes back to shoot him if the people who ran called the cops they show up and see you behind a counter aiming at the door leading to the back they arent going to ask you if your the one who's robbing or helping they get there your the first person they see with a gun, one person was phoned in there might be another waiting.
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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spade115 View Post
    I would think professional criminals would be long gone because they have done this befor his car was probably parked somewhere infront where it would be easy to get to if people saw.

    It could of been he decided to take off through the back to make people think he's leaving somewhere through a back alley and double back to his vehicle parked while removing his hoodie and spot the guy waiting with a gun. Some people no matter how you try and think about it might not have too much reason.

    While your thinking your going to wait till he comes back to shoot him if the people who ran called the cops they show up and see you behind a counter aiming at the door leading to the back they arent going to ask you if your the one who's robbing or helping they get there your the first person they see with a gun, one person was phoned in there might be another waiting.
    I can understand that to an extent. And as I stated earlier, my tactics would not have been to stay back and try to ambush him on his way back out from the back room. I would have opened fire as he came in and attempted to draw his weapon, or I would have taken the opportunity to run out the front door and call police as soon as he entered the back room.

    But everyone is going to have to play things out as they see it develop.

    I just don't put much stock in him coming back inside to engage me once he's left the building, even if he parked out front and noticed me with my gun as he was going to his car. Coming back in to engage me would be adding to his risk of bad things happening. Once outside, getting in his car and driving off has much less risk.

    Now, to cover the next unlikely possibility "but what if he's just a real sick individual, and instead of getting in his car and leaving, he does come come back in and try to kill you?" Well, in that case, I try to engage him as best I can, or get killed. There's no guarantee's in life.
    Spade115 likes this.
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  7. #22
    Senior Member Array Spade115's Avatar
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    I agree with you if I was carrying and saw it I would engage if I could do it quick enough but like one of the other posters said if they wait for him to come back out to shoot him why would you wait? Especially if you had your kid with you
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  8. #23
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    The man did the only thing he could do in the situation. His child was his first responsibility and that is what he took care of.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spade115 View Post
    I agree with you if I was carrying and saw it I would engage if I could do it quick enough but like one of the other posters said if they wait for him to come back out to shoot him why would you wait? Especially if you had your kid with you
    I hope you guys didn't think that's what I meant. When I said the opportunity was good when he was behind the counter I meant when he initially walked behind it and herded the girls into the back room.
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    This one puzzles me. I am honestly at a loss. Since I want to prepare myself for anything that can happen I am curious why some of you say you wouldn't have drawn and fired? The BG seemed to ignore the man and child, and when he went in the back I have the opportunity to set up to ambush him when he comes back through. I dunno, that is a tough one.

    Let's say I do shoot him and he dies and he is a kid with a "fake gun". Am I on the stand for murder? (even though state law says I can use my gun to stop a robbery?) And what if it is real and he ends up killing one of the clerks and I took off, how do I sleep then?
    I do not have an S on my chest, I am not in a movie, I am not looking to use my firearm, the reason I carry it is to make sure I get home at the end of the day. Just because I have a hammer, does not make every situation a nail. Use of a firearm is a last resort, not an opportunity to hunt felons. Waiting in an "ambush" only increases the likelyhood of me getting shot, reduces the odds of me getting home to live another day. If in the position of the man in the video the only thing worth dying for in that store would be the daughter (I'm still single but I too have loved ones), the employees are strangers and fled on their own and I don't care about the cash in the register or any amount of ice cream he may want. Even if I may be legally allowed to shoot, doesn't mean I would necessarily do so. Now if we walks in and starts shooting, as a local convenience store robber did earlier this week, it's a much different threat being presented, and in turn gets a much different reaction, but while it's still peaceful and a show of force, I need not agitate the situation.

    As was mentioned if it was indeed a toy, it makes no difference in the eyes of the law, and I would assume it was real unless quite obviously a toy (neon super soaked with the bug tanks for instance)
    Tzadik likes this.

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  11. #26
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    I DO have a 8-year old daughter. And I carry EVERYWHERE it's legal to do so. We frequent shops like this. In my opinion, the man took care of his first priority. I would've done the same. Most of the small, strip mall shops we go to are small, confined spaces and I always sit facing the entry. My #1 goal is to get us OUT if possible. I'm not a cop, and don't play one on TV. If 'trapped' in a situation, I will do ANYTHING in my power to get out safe.

  12. #27
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    To each his own, but I don't carry a weapon to defend yogurt shops from being robbed of corporate profits. Their insurance company can settle that. If I can get to the door I'm outa there. As for the women inside, well they have just as much right to carry a weapon for their protection as I do. If they don't, well shame on them.
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  13. #28
    Senior Member Array Tzadik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck View Post
    ...And what if it is real and he ends up killing one of the clerks and I took off, how do I sleep then?
    Truth is none of those people are going to sleep well for a while, but I would sleep alot better knowing that my daughter was safe and I got her out of there when I had the chance.

    I'd bet my marriage would be a lot more sound than if I had stayed behind to take the shot.

    That man did just what he should have... maybe a little bit slower on the move than optimal though.

  14. #29
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    Being that this is in PA the current law reads you must retreat if it is safe to do so. In about three weeks castle doctrine will kick in and avoid this legal hurdle.

    In my mind your daughter comes first. Dad did OK.

    From a tactical standpoint I don't know if BG is alone. MORE BG out front? Is he letting them in from the back door? Is he about to shoot the people in back and let some stray rounds about to cut through the cheap dry wall and hit me and/or my daughter? Don't know and I'm not about to guess. Nobody calls the secret service cowards, same principle applies, get clear of the kill zone and call in reinforcements. Agree that the hoodie and black outfit was a big warning sign.
    Last edited by msb45; August 3rd, 2011 at 11:03 PM. Reason: sp

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    It is reassuring that the obvious decision for me is the same decision reach by nearly everyone who commented.
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