Gecko45 like mess up & or manslaughter/ shoplifting gone bad

This is a discussion on Gecko45 like mess up & or manslaughter/ shoplifting gone bad within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Was this a Gecko45 kill or one of his larvi...... I ment Tac-Team members? No, wait..... the Gecko-Squad would've handeled it in the store BEFORE ...

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Thread: Gecko45 like mess up & or manslaughter/ shoplifting gone bad

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Was this a Gecko45 kill or one of his larvi...... I ment Tac-Team members?

    No, wait..... the Gecko-Squad would've handeled it in the store BEFORE it escalated into the personnal area where this incident occured.

    motivatorac5777c8efb1fbfab5211356a0.jpg

    either that or out of respect for their brothers in merchandising arms they (Gecko-Tac-Squad) remained in a 10-7 backup and support roll.



    OK scarsam off........

    The Wally-World LP people took care of business.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Well, glad they were able to protect themselves. Now it's time to look for a new job. Hasn't WM fired everyone that's defended themselves in this manner? They take compliance and zero resisting to a whole new level of insanity.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Sig 210's Avatar
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    He got it with his own gun. Good riddance.
    A fine example of poetic justice at work. The worms will soon do their job.
    barstoolguru likes this.

  5. #19
    Member Array dtox's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think they need to do a lot of review of their practices. This could have been a whole lot worse for everyone. It still might
    be really really bad if there turns out to be inadequate evidence of shop lifting in the first place.

    I'm not saying that's the case, but you never know. Bad things can happen with Geckos in charge.

    Nothing has been published about the record or lack thereof of the deceased. He is stated to be 47. That suggests to me
    he is either a professional thief who feared getting yet another conviction, OR---- the door is left ajar to the
    possibility he was falsely held, and somehow felt compelled to try to protect himself with physical force.

    I sincerely hope our gendarmes are totally thorough in their investigation; and totally unbiased against the deceased, and
    get to the bottom of how and why this occurred-- which may be exactly as stated, but strongly suggests a need for
    changed procedures.

    .

    I'm confused. It sounds like in an earlier update, you say the shooting was justified, yet somehow you are still calling them "Geckos"? In your opinion, are all non LEO security/loss prevention personnel considered Geckos?
    Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Spade115's Avatar
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    when I worked at walmart right before my shift ended they asked a few of us male cashiers and several stockers to hang out outside there were people shoplifting and incase they run outside they wanted us to nab them and hold them for police.
    When life gives you lemons, Open a lemonaid buisness.

  7. #21
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Ah, but can you forcible take him to a hidden area? If he has not left the store, is he a shoplifter? In this particular store
    there are large spaces and several areas within the store where folks can conduct various affairs-- haircut, eyeglasses, snacks,
    all well forward of the registers. I'm not saying he wasn't a SL, I am saying there will need to be solid proof
    or we are talking about manslaughter.
    texas law says you can detain a criminal; it doen't not go into detail on how it can be done but the paractice of taking a SL to an area like an office is common while waiting for police to arive. keep in mind that security officers are almost like police in the state of texas. if you assault one it's like hitting a cop and is punishable under the same laws

    Texas is a common law state so there is no specific statute but court precedent. The closest thing is 14.01 of the Texas Code of Criminal Procedure allows any individual to make a citizens arrest for felonies witnessed and crimes against public peace.
    Also the 9th amendment (Bill of Rights) says "individual's natural right to self preservation and the defense of the others" is protected. So you can always fall back on the Constitution.
    Most other common law states say the offense meriting a citizen's arrest must be indictable (not just felonies) but the list of indictable misdemeanors is short (most places false fire report is the only one).
    As far a Texas precedent for "crimes against the public peace" the last court decision of note defining public peace said "Texas courts have said the term "breach of the peace" is "generic, and includes all violations of the public peace or order, or decorum. . . . Accordingly, where means which cause disquiet and disorder, and which threaten danger and disaster to the community are used, it amounts to a breach of the peace, although no actual personal violence is employed." Ruiz v. State, 907 S.W.2d 600, 603 (Tex. App.-Corpus Christi 1995). The determination of whether an act constitutes a breach of the peace involves a case-by-case analysis, "looking to the facts and circumstances surrounding the act." Turner v. State, 901 S.W.2d 767, 770 (Tex. App.-Houston [14th Dist.] 1995). "
    Arrest means detention and the taking away of a persons right to free movement. So if you are correct the laws favor your handcuffing someone but not for such things as prostitution and narcotics or liqueur law violations.
    Remember you never ever know what an individual judge will say or more importantly if a DA wants to prosecute you. A DA's influence on a Grand Jury is great and then you can be indicted to.

  8. #22
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    @detox, we had an unfolding story with partial information. That's why you see a couple of different
    viewpoints from me.

    As more info has come out about the alleged shop lifter, the more some serious questions come into my mind
    about what actually happened in there. I hope there is plenty of video and plenty of thorough police investigation

    The dead man was at most a very petty criminal with a very minor record. It seems unlikely he would have attempted to use
    lethal force unless ganged-on. At this point I hope the police can turn up evidence of the following: 1) an actual theft
    greater in value than for a misdemeanor theft charge; 2) proof of who owned the gun and the knife; 3) How the man
    got to a room with several LP personnel? Did he go voluntarily? Was force used to take him there? Does it make sense that he
    would walk in voluntarily and then start a fight inside? 4) What happened
    in that room? Did the alleged shop lifter panic? Did the store security gang on him to where he felt he needed to
    defend himself?

    The story is sitting uneasy on my mind now, and our community is lucky as heck this was a Caucasian who died
    and not a black man. We'd be a little Sanford if it were the other way around. The fact that someone died over
    a shop lifting suggests to me that proper procedures may not have been followed.

    Right now I'm accepting none of it as reported at face value.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Similar incident in my area. The police and loss prevention personnel were in the security office when the shooting took place..

    Knoxville police shoot and kill armed shoplifting suspect


    In this instance though, the police did the shooting.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene83 View Post
    Similar incident in my area. The police and loss prevention personnel were in the security office when the shooting took place..

    Knoxville police shoot and kill armed shoplifting suspect


    In this instance though, the police did the shooting.
    I think the presence of a certified peace officer makes a tremendous difference in the situation.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think the presence of a certified peace officer makes a tremendous difference in the situation.
    It does, but the thing that struck me were some of the details of the case. In this case, I think the young man paid for the antifreeze and was stealing appliance light bulbs. It seemed like a such trivial thing to get in a gunfight over. I was referring to this statement in your previous post...


    The dead man was at most a very petty criminal with a very minor record. It seems unlikely he would have attempted to use
    lethal force unless ganged-on.


    It just hard to predict what's going through someone's mind when they decide to pull a gun. In the incident in my town, the officers were cleared in the shooting and there was store video although, to the best of my knowledge, it was never made public.

    Keep us posted as to what happens in your incident.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gene83 View Post
    It does, but the thing that struck me were some of the details of the case. In this case, I think the young man paid for the antifreeze and was stealing appliance light bulbs. It seemed like a such trivial thing to get in a gunfight over. I was referring to this statement in your previous post...


    The dead man was at most a very petty criminal with a very minor record. It seems unlikely he would have attempted to use
    lethal force unless ganged-on.


    It just hard to predict what's going through someone's mind when they decide to pull a gun. In the incident in my town, the officers were cleared in the shooting and there was store video although, to the best of my knowledge, it was never made public.

    Keep us posted as to what happens in your incident.
    Guessing only, we will learn nothing new unless the father files a wrongful death case or the police turn up evidence
    that the story told by LP is bogus. You are right, you never know what people will do. But that goes two ways; which is why
    I keep my skepticism.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Guessing only, we will learn nothing new unless the father files a wrongful death case or the police turn up evidence
    that the story told by LP is bogus. You are right, you never know what people will do. But that goes two ways; which is why
    I keep my skepticism.
    There was some skepticism regarding the incident here also...thoughts that the police were to quick to shoot and tended to back each other up...that sort of thing. I can tell you one thing though...Walmart security offices are not large rooms. If you get three or four individuals and a struggling suspect in one of those rooms, and a gun appears, in all probability somebody will be shot. You don't have anywhere to take cover.
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Hopyard,
    I will address as many of your questions as I can right now. My wife is on the computer so I am doing this from my phone so I can't cut and paste stuff or do links.

    Yes they can arrest him. They are agents of the owner and they are doing a citizens arrest. Yes they can use force. Penal code section 9.51 (b) covers that. They can also use force to prevent his escape PC 9.41, 9.43 and 9.52.
    His prior record of petty crimes is irrelevant, if you recall Charlie Manson had been a pretty criminal too. The fact its this guy brought a knife and a gun on his petty shoplifting trip. A lawyer might argue that he was not "using" them but as soon as he grabbed one in the store his shoplifting became an aggravated robbery, which is a felony.
    The only real question I see to be resolved is what was the value of the items he was stealing? It might be argued that the value was low enough to call into question the lawfulness of the original intended arrest. That its covered under government code ( I don't know the section off the top of my head) regarding arrest without warrant.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Hopyard,
    I will address as many of your questions as I can right now. My wife is on the computer so I am doing this from my phone so I can't cut and paste stuff or do links.

    Yes they can arrest him. They are agents of the owner and they are doing a citizens arrest. Yes they can use force. Penal code section 9.51 (b) covers that. They can also use force to prevent his escape PC 9.41, 9.43 and 9.52.
    His prior record of petty crimes is irrelevant, if you recall Charlie Manson had been a pretty criminal too. The fact its this guy brought a knife and a gun on his petty shoplifting trip. A lawyer might argue that he was not "using" them but as soon as he grabbed one in the store his shoplifting became an aggravated robbery, which is a felony.
    The only real question I see to be resolved is what was the value of the items he was stealing? It might be argued that the value was low enough to call into question the lawfulness of the original intended arrest. That its covered under government code ( I don't know the section off the top of my head) regarding arrest without warrant.
    I would think what needs to be investigated is whether or not there was actually a shop lifting in the first place; then maybe
    the value can be looked into for whatever relevance that might have.

    For all I know there was a SL as alleged and it is crystal clear from the cameras. OTOH, for all anyone knows, an innocent was taken in the back, ganged on, and he used his lawful right to self defense unsuccessfully.

    There is not enough to go on from the news stories, so no jumping to conclusions either way.

    A number of people have posted to our local tv station's web site that the man was working 2 jobs, was a good guy,
    that priors were (depending on which post you read) trivial.

    I have no special interest in the case, or knowledge of it except that it happened where I sometimes shop.

    One post on the TV web site says the LP person who shot him was fired by WM.
    I don't know if that is true or not. I don't know what if anything might be inferred from that.

    What I'm driving at is that the news people, and the initial police reports, may have much of the situation wrong; or not.

    If there was no theft, we are talking about SD and manslaughter. Even if there was theft, we (the folks who live here)
    need to know that he wasn't ganged on back in their little room.

    Part of your post I put in bold might be irrelevant. Many of us would bring a gun and a knife on our shopping trips. That doesn't by itself show he planned to use them in the manner alleged, or that he shop lifted in the first place.

    My hope is that there is adequate video of everything that happened and that justice will be done, either way.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  16. #30
    Ex Member Array Yoda's Avatar
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    When I served on a grand jury we had a Walmart loss prevention specialist come in and brief us. They will only hold someone if they have positive proof of shoplifting. Because otherwise they can get in trouble for kidnapping and a big lawsuit.


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