Bad: Home invader escapes from the law

This is a discussion on Bad: Home invader escapes from the law within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Well, here's one good reason to shoot "to stop the threat." This home invader, after being treated at the hospital for GSW (provided by homeowner); ...

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Thread: Bad: Home invader escapes from the law

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Bad: Home invader escapes from the law

    Well, here's one good reason to shoot "to stop the threat."

    This home invader, after being treated at the hospital for GSW (provided by homeowner); got loose in the transition from patient to prisoner... Might not be too hard to find... after all, he's runnin' around in a hospital gown...

    Story Here
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Oh, and here's another one.... very similar... except they caught this one in a hotel

    Story here
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Handcuffed to bed,or at least leg irons would have prevented both of these situations.Somebody needs to review how they deal with prisoners at the hospital
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    But,the ACLU would argue that this is a violation of his personal liberties.
    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Handcuffed to bed,or at least leg irons would have prevented both of these situations.Somebody needs to review how they deal with prisoners at the hospital

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    Member Array Reaperman357's Avatar
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    if they were shot then they ran away the threat was stopped don't give people advice that will end in murder charges.
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    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaperman357 View Post
    if they were shot then they ran away the threat was stopped don't give people advice that will end in murder charges.
    it counts on what state you live in, some states allow you to shoot a fleeing felon like texas

    (b) A person other than a peace officer (or one acting at his direction) is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to make or assist in making a lawful arrest, or to prevent or assist in preventing escape after lawful arrest if, before using force, the actor manifests his purpose to and the reason for the arrest or reasonably believes his purpose and the reason are already known by or cannot reasonably be made known to the person to be arrested.

    Subch. E. LAW ENFORCEMENT
    PC 9.51. ARREST AND SEARCH.

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaperman357 View Post
    if they were shot then they ran away the threat was stopped don't give people advice that will end in murder charges.
    Nobody gave any such advice.... Shoot to stop the threat (period).

    If such an endeavor should end with the perpetrator running away... so be it. If it should end with the perpetrator dead, likewise.

    As posted above... In Texas... not so much...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    I agree with oakchas in that we don't shoot to murder, not even good to use the word on this board or out in public. We shoot to stop a threat, to stop all motion and control the situation
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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Amended: They caught the guy...from the first post.

    Tried to push his own mother out of the car.... Apparently this man was still a threat to others, even his own mother. So the threat wasn't (ahem) stopped in the initial shooting.

    Follow up here
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    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Sooooooo the threat was "diverted elsewhere?"
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    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    What a piece of work this little creep is. I know you fire until the threat is stopped, but too bad the threat was not stopped permanently in the initial assault. I don't think he would have escaped from a body bag.
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    The hospital recovery room for perps like this ought to be in the basement... refrigerated.
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    it counts on what state you live in, some states allow you to shoot a fleeing felon like texas

    (b) A person other than a peace officer (or one acting at his direction) is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to make or assist in making a lawful arrest, or to prevent or assist in preventing escape after lawful arrest ...

    Subch. E. LAW ENFORCEMENT
    PC 9.51. ARREST AND SEARCH.
    I'm all for considering active steps to stop a violent felon's imminent threat against others. And many states are willing to concede that some measure of assistance by citizens in stopping such "flight" threats is justifiable. But the reality can be stickier than most suppose, if one doesn't know first-hand the degree of threat that exists.

    Such statutes generally have this language: fleeing felon, and to the degree it is reasonably believed. Meaning, it's not a blanket approval. In most states, the lingo is a bit more strict about what conditions justify a non-law enforcement type to step up and take down a fleeing person. In any subsequent take-down by a citizen, it's going to be treated as a new engagement on its own merits, within the constraints of the law.

    For my money, even in cases of fleeing felon capture, the A.O.J. (Ability, Opportunity, Jeopardy) standards still make far more sense and are far less murky by comparison.

    Consider ... If one is walking nearby a hospital zone and someone pops out of a building yelling and pointing at a fleeing person, claiming he's an escaped felon, it's hard to know much beyond that. One doesn't know the facts involved, is relying on the claims/pointing/yelling, isn't a first-hand witness to any specific violence, threat, ability or opportunity to commit violence against another that involves this fleeing person. Things to think about, when considering taking down someone fleeing, and when considering just how a group of 12 people in the GJ/jury will adjudge one's reasonableness in the presence of such a lack of information.

    Now, that all being said, for my own part I would certainly consider helping to take down a fleeing felon in a situation in which I'd witnessed serious violence by him first-hand, and I would likely think it entirely reasonable that such a person would be highly likely to have little compunction over committing other similar acts in a bid to remain free and flying. But that's just me.
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  15. #14
    Member Array lordofwyr's Avatar
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    Never shoot to kill. Never shoot to murder.

    Always shoot to stop the immediate threat.

    Anything else drags you down to their level, and we should strive to be the better person.
    If they die of their wounds, too bad. We cannot predict the future and what a BG may or may not do.

    And as to handcuffing the BG to an object, many departments no longer let their officers handcuff a suspect to any object for liability reasons. If the doctor needs to de-fib or there is a fire in the hospital, etc.... the BG still has a right to be protected and survive for trial by a jury of their peers.

    Funny story from my past on this subject to kind of lighten the mood....and I swear that I am not making this up.

    Decades back I had a BG that had been shotgunned in the backside by the son of a bar owner he had just murdered during a robbery. The BG was was in the hospital and not really expected to live (seemed like good justice had been served already to me).

    I called my Lt. to let him know I thought the guy would most likely die of his wounds since the Sergeant was busy.

    His response, "Well, if he does die, don't let him leave!"

    Uh....say wha????

    Ended up he meant "don't let them take the body to the morgue before a detective could be sent out....." but for a few heartbeats I thought perhaps I might have a Zombie on my hands and had not been given "Important NEED TO KNOW information."
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