Choir singer kills robber

This is a discussion on Choir singer kills robber within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Lowflyer, without getting into controversy here, yes it can be done but with the caveat that your Combat Triad must be in tune. If you ...

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Thread: Choir singer kills robber

  1. #16
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    Lowflyer, without getting into controversy here, yes it can be done but with the caveat that your Combat Triad must be in tune. If you do not practice drawing from concealment enough or shoot from retention enough and accurately or have the mindset prepare to engage the BG to the ultimate consequence then yes, you may lose.
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
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  3. #17
    Member Array dwpa's Avatar
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    I would just like to point out that here in Arkansas, where this happened, it is illegal to carry in a church or other house of worship. If this guy had just come out of the church, he legally should have been disarmed. I suppose it's possible that the gun was in the truck, but my point is that it's blindly stupid for the Arkansas legislature to assume that people are safe just because they're in church. It's just ONE of the things about CCW here in Arkansas that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. This could have turned out a whole lot worse for these people if he had been coming out of the church unarmed due to the law. Just food for thought.
    --dwpa

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  4. #18
    Member Array DizTbone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tangle View Post
    As church goes, I can't understand why they aren't robbed. They typically take an offering and it seems like it'd be easy pickin's for BGs.
    A United Methodist church in MD was robbed on Christmas Eve. The assailants held the congregation at gun-point and had the children collect everyone's wallets. The UMC praised the pastor and congregation for complying. No one was injured.

    Being on the "inside" I know what the "typical" numbers are for any given Sunday at churches of various sizes. Tangle, I also wonder why more aren't hit.

    That takes me back to my Tulsa trip about three weeks ago...and the discussion with some colleagues who were very upset that one church had hired a Tulsa PD officer (ret'd, I think) to do security...armed.

    I understand the need for balance...for churches to be safe, yet welcoming places. ...but this story takes me back to sooo many choir rehearsals that ended after dark and led to poorly lit, unsecured parking lots. Of course, in Arkansas, no one would have been lawfully armed until actually reaching their vehicle. Same thing applies to the Sunday offering...

    SRFL, et al., sorry for the duplicate post. Mea culpa...IIRC, that's Latin for "my bad."

    Michael
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  5. #19
    New Member Array God & Country's Avatar
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    UPDATE

    Thanks for the nice welcome everyone.

    Here is the latest from the local paper. I will post again and let you know what the prosecutor decides. I assume that this will be a justified shooting.

    Little Rock police identified the man killed in a shooting Wednesday night in a church parking lot.
    Jason Jones, 20, of 904 S. Battery St. was shot “four or five” times just before 9:45 p.m. Wednesday after he tried to steal a truck at gunpoint from a member of the Shiloh Seventhday Adventist Church at 2400 Maple St. , according to reports released Thursday.
    “God wasn’t going to let that happen on his turf, I guess,” said Calvin Hale, who lives across the street from the church and heard the gunfire.
    The killing was Little Rock’s 47th homicide of the year. The city recorded 41 killings in all of 2005.
    According to a police report released Thursday, the shooting occurred after Jones tried to rob a couple two blocks north of the church on Maple.
    One of the robbery victims, Erma Lewis, 60, fled south toward the church. The robber pursued.
    Choir practice had just ended at the church, and choir members were leaving when Lewis reached the church, according to the police report.
    Samuel Mitchell, a 54-year-old choir member, was driving out of the parking lot when Lewis climbed into his 1993 Chevrolet truck and asked for help.
    According to the police report, the would-be robber approached the driver’s side of the truck, pointed a 9mm pistol at Mitchell and said he was going to steal the truck.
    Mitchell responded by opening the truck door, producing a 9mm of his own and shooting Jones in the chest and left arm, according to the report.
    Paramedics took Jones to the University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences hospital, where he died of his wounds in the emergency room.
    A spokesman for the Arkansas State Police said Mitchell was licensed to carry the pistol. Both guns in the attack were stainless steel with black grips, according to the report.
    Police did not arrest Mitchell in the shooting, and a police spokesman said the case would be turned over to Pulaski County Prosecuting Attorney Larry Jegley to determine if the 54-year-old acted in self-defense. Mitchell declined to comment on the shooting.
    Jones wore a gray T-shirt and black pants, and had tattoos on both arms, according to the report. One tattoo on his right arm read, “Big Jones.” The tattoo on his left arm depicted a gun.
    “We don’t know all the details,” said James Roberts, pastor of the church. “We’re trying to get to the bottom of it. And that’s all I can say right now.”
    Jones was born in Blytheville, according to Pulaski County jail files. He was held in the jail in January after being charged with carrying a weapon and failure to appear, a jail employee said. Jones was convicted and released in February after being given credit for time served, the employee said.
    Jones also was held in June 2005 on domestic-battery charges. The disposition of that case wasn’t available. Information for this article was provided by Van Jensen of the Arkansas Democrat-Gazette.

  6. #20
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    "Both guns in the attack were stainless steel with black grips, according to the report."

    I was just struck that the reporter felt this was critical information.



    Adding...welcome to the forum from Middle Tennessee, God and Country!
    Last edited by falcon1; September 16th, 2006 at 04:25 PM. Reason: Additional information

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array p8riot's Avatar
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    Welcome! from Virginia.

    I often go to the range before choir practice, and many times have been asked why I still have my gun with me during choir. Now I have another actual example to cite when responding.
    "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

    The second amendment is the reset button of our Constitution.

  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array p8riot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dwpa View Post
    I would just like to point out that here in Arkansas, where this happened, it is illegal to carry in a church or other house of worship. If this guy had just come out of the church, he legally should have been disarmed. I suppose it's possible that the gun was in the truck, but my point is that it's blindly stupid for the Arkansas legislature to assume that people are safe just because they're in church. It's just ONE of the things about CCW here in Arkansas that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. This could have turned out a whole lot worse for these people if he had been coming out of the church unarmed due to the law. Just food for thought.
    The same holds true here in Virginia. It is illegal to carry a weapon into a house of worship during worship services without a "good and sufficient" reason. The law does not define "good and sufficient". Our pastor however has told a few of us that do carry that it would be OK with him if we did during services.

    Don't you find it odd that with all of this hullabaloo about the "constitutional separation of church and state" that the state still mandates what you can and cannot do in church? They've got it both ways, and nobody says anything about it.

    I've been after my state representatives, for years now, to repeal this useless restriction based on the "church and state" principal, and it doesn't go anywhere from there. Guess I need to run for office and do something about it myself.
    "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

    The second amendment is the reset button of our Constitution.

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by p8riot View Post
    Don't you find it odd that with all of this hullabaloo about the "constitutional separation of church and state" that the state still mandates what you can and cannot do in church? They've got it both ways, and nobody says anything about it.
    The principled separation between church and state has nothing to do with such restrictions, of course. The principle is about reducing the risk of religious fanticism gaining control over government policy, not government's citing a few places that are off-limits for concealed carry ... with one of them being religious. Why airports, of all things, as the only thing there worth harming is the number of people. Else, any office building would do. Overall, such restrictions make zero sense to me, as they only disarm folks against criminals that ignore the restrictions anyway.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by falcon1 View Post
    "Both guns in the attack were stainless steel with black grips, according to the report."

    I was just struck that the reporter felt this was critical information.
    You know... I thought all bad guys had nickle guns with pearl grips!

    WELCOME from Nevada!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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  11. #25
    Member Array soundwave's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne
    This is why the stats used by the anti's are so screwed up. They are counting justifiable self defense as a homicide.

    The anti's of course won't tell the people that, but will just just the numbers.
    Actually, if it's justifiable or not, it's still homicide. They didn't commit suicide (despite that they were too stupid to commit the crime). However, the FBI stats that anti-gun people quote really do not include justifiable homicide because they aren't the same as straight-out "homicide". Also, anti-gun people often quote the "reported" crime rather than the "cleared" crime. When a LEO finishes a call they have to clear the call with an FBI Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) code which dictates the actuall offense that happened. When a crime is reported or a call is started on it, a "reported" code is generated that goes with the crime reported, but it's not necessarily what happened. That's why the "cleared" code is more accurate. Per the FBI:

    "Justifiable Homicide

    Certain willful killings must be reported as justifiable, or excusable. In the UCR Program, justifiable homicide is defined as and limited to:

    * The killing of a felon by a peace officer in the line of duty.
    * The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.

    Because these killings are determined through law enforcement investigation to be justifiable, they are tabulated separately from the murder and nonnegligent manslaughter classification."


    At this URL: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_04/offen...me/murder.html

    You will find the crime statistics for murder from 2000-2004. While the entire page is nothing but murders for that timeframe, only the last two tables show justifiable homicide which are not included in the tabulation. The first table shows LEOs involved and the second is private citizens. In fact, these justifiable homicide tables are still under-reported. They do not include someone that was not a convicted felon committing a felony when they were killed. So if you justifiably kill a person with a clean record (or only misdemeanors) when they commit a felony (e.g. rob you, etc.) then they aren't included. It's the FBI, what can I say?

    Cheers.
    Last edited by soundwave; September 23rd, 2006 at 08:49 PM.

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