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Oopsie: she called 911, LEO came, she shot

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Thread: Oopsie: she called 911, LEO came, she shot

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Ah, the shoulda, coulda, woulda....... She was right, she was wrong, give gun back, keep her gun....
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  2. #17
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    When we had an attempted break in a few years ago, I kept guard at our bedroom door with my Glock at the ready, while my wife called 911. 20 mins later he showed up...but we had no idea he was there. No knock at the door, no announcing he was there. The officer was at our side door playing with the handle to see how the attempted break in was done. We had to call 911 back to verify it was the officer at the door and not the perp still trying to break in.
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  3. #18
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    What the hell ever happened to 911 operator staying on the phone with the caller and informing them the police are there to secure her home, and to put the weapon away, and let them in?

    How about the next time the cops arrive @ the home of an elderly person, light the scene up with your strobes so they can see you are there.


    If that was my mom she'd be getting another firearm.
    With strict instructions to NOT shoot until the person is ID'ed as a real threat, and that she can actually see them.
    mprp, ccw9mm, ksholder and 1 others like this.
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  4. #19
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    What the hell ever happened to 911 operator staying on the phone with the caller and informing them the police are there to secure her home, and to put the weapon away, and let them in?

    How about the next time the cops arrive @ the home of an elderly person, light the scene up with your strobes so they can see you are there.


    If that was my mom she'd be getting another firearm.With strict instructions to NOT shoot until the person is ID'ed as a real threat, and that she can actually see them.
    Yep
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  5. #20
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by From the article
    Toledo police say the woman fired her late husband's revolver through a wall at the officer ...
    An object lesson on how risky it can be to shoot a person who has not yet been identified as a threat. Beyond which, once a person is clearly seen inside the home's outer defenses, it gets tougher for claims to be made that one wasn't acting in fully-legitimate defense of one's person and home.

    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    What the hell ever happened to 911 operator staying on the phone with the caller and informing them the police are there to secure her home, and to put the weapon away, and let them in?

    How about the next time the cops arrive @ the home of an elderly person, light the scene up with your strobes so they can see you are there.
    Seems simple enough steps to me. It's unclear from the article whether the 911 dispatcher was on the phone with the person through time of arrival by the police, but it doesn't seem so.

    Glad it was only a treat-and-release injury on the officer. Hopefully they'll be reviewing procedures for possible improvements. And hopefully she'll be reconsidering the whole shoot-through-the-wall thang, and relegate it to the ash heap where it generally belongs.
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  6. #21
    Senior Member Array kb2wji's Avatar
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    Are we cutting this woman more slack because she's elderly? I would imagine if one of us shot an unidentified threat through a wall, the replies would be a little more stern. Maybe more name calling too A bullet from a 90 year old woman's gun stings just the same as one from a SWAT Operator.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kb2wji View Post
    She failed to identify her target. Thats on her, nobody else. The fact that she called police to begin with might have been a clue that police would respond. But this lady didnt care to verify that. NO...she does NOT need a gun.
    Maybe, maybe not. The cop was reportedly trying to break into her house. That is not something cops normally do, but BGs dressed as cops do. Announcing his presence would have likely gone a long way to avoid this situation. Just because she called in a prowler does not give the cops the right to break down her door.

    Quote Originally Posted by kb2wji View Post
    Are we cutting this woman more slack because she's elderly? I would imagine if one of us shot an unidentified threat through a wall, the replies would be a little more stern. Maybe more name calling too A bullet from a 90 year old woman's gun stings just the same as one from a SWAT Operator.
    I am not so sure we are are cutting her a break. The cops did not charge her. Could be that they did not follow procedure and understood that their trying to break in without announcing their presence is likely to result in exactly such actions as she took.

    It should be noted that while the cops did not charge her, they did take her property (weapon). Since when are the cops the judge and jury? Taking her property without due process is theft.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ksholder View Post
    The cop was reportedly trying to break into her house. That is not something cops normally do, but BGs dressed as cops do. Announcing his presence would have likely gone a long way to avoid this situation. Just because she called in a prowler does not give the cops the right to break down her door.
    If a resident cannot be contacted on the phone and hasn't responded to calls/inquiries from outside the home, the only other alternative is: get into the home, to verify. Particularly with a 911/emergency call for assistance based on an intruder on the premises. Unclear what was said and what steps were taken to ensure the resident knew the police were outside.
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  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    If a resident cannot be contacted on the phone and hasn't responded to calls/inquiries from outside the home, the only other alternative is: get into the home, to verify. Particularly with a 911/emergency call for assistance based on an intruder on the premises. Unclear what was said and what steps were taken to ensure the resident knew the police were outside.
    Concur.
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  10. #25
    Senior Member Array kb2wji's Avatar
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    Taking property if there is a threat to herself or others happens sometimes. I've had to take guns away from people before. Most of the time its due to a mental health concern. I recently had to take some guns out of Desert Storm Veteran's house. We felt horrible, but the guy has some serious PTSD, and probably would have shot up the neighborhood if we didnt.

    In this case, a woman shot through a wall, having no idea what her target was. If she kept her gun, and shot the next neighborhood kid that was playing hide and seek around her house, it would be my butt on the wrong end of a lawsuit. It sucks, but sometimes you have to make the call.

    As far as a LEO not announcing, I can see that happening, and its not because a LEO is trying to be sneaky. I like to evaluate the situation before giving myself away. It's a balancing act. The flashlight is a good example. You want to use it enough to see whats going on, but not so much as to give away your position unnecessarily. There isnt a perfect balance. When a LEO parks his car 3 houses away and walks up to the house through neighbors yards, its not because he's trying to be shifty. He's just being safer.

    It's been mentioned somewhere (not sure if its this thread or another, sorry) that a LEO should just pull up with his blue lights on. That would be an excellent way to let the homeowner know that its a friendly on his yard. However, it's also a good way to let the BG think "uh oh, better post up behind this tree and hide". Not safe. Giving yourself away isnt a good idea. It's not perfect, and defenitely has drawbacks, but its the safer of the two options. I would like to think that most gun owners know enough to identify a target before blasting away. But obviously, some dont. If she kept her gun, then shot a girl scout through the front door the next day, the LEO would be trying to explain to a judge why the ladies gun wasnt taken away.

    I take it the reason she wasnt charged is that she did not have intent to shoot a LEO. It was an accident. The problem I have is that the accident could have been prevented by simply having a tiny bit of common sense / training. This accident proves that she is a danger to others with a gun. We've all seen the guy thats driving his car while on the phone, reading a book and eating a sandwich all at the same time. When he crashes into a bus full of nun's, he didnt mean to, but his total lack of common sense and regard for safety should be addressed. I have a hard time saying "woops, he didnt mean to" and leaving it at that. Think of the nun's!!

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Ya'all keep saying she should have ID'd him first...... it was night time.... ya know ..... I don't have all the lights on in my house all of the time, nor in the middle of the friggin night.... so , if a shadowy figure is coming thru the door.... I'm not turning on the lights FIRST .... and saying " sorry, I have to ID you first" .

    It's the Police Officer's reponsiblity to ID himself... loud and clear,.... especially if he is entering a residence that he knows there is an occupant inside who called 911 in fear they had a burglar. That's NOT rocket science and if you don't , you may get shot. Officer's problem.... which is the reason she'll never be charged with anything and hasn't been.
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    Ya'all keep saying she should have ID'd him first... It's the Police Officer's reponsiblity to ID himself...
    IMO, it's a joint responsibility. ID should have been made (whomever pushed the step), and I'd think it not unreasonable to expect ID to have been made prior to entry.

    Agreed, that the resident also needs to be informed of the arrival of officers, whether via the 911/dispatch (if still connected) or via the inbound officers themselves. The resident called for assistance, so should have been expecting it to come, particularly if (as is likely) 911/dispatch informed her officers were on the way. One would think that would preclude a shooting through a wall. Apparently not.

    But, reality is, this was a call asking for emergency assistance about an intruder, one who might well have gained entry and turned a feared prowling into a full-scale home invasion. Unclear what, if anything, was said by the officers, how loudly, how many times, from what windows/doors, or whether the resident acknowledged the officers. Unclear whether they were keeping silent for a brief period until they'd scanned the exterior (at which point the resident would likely believe the noises/movements to be that of the intruder. Unclear whether 911/dispatch attempted to get the resident back on the phone, or such a call was met by no answer. Unclear whether the elderly resident has hearing problems, though the newsie article indicates she "heard" a prowler/burglar.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by kb2wji View Post
    Taking property if there is a threat to herself or others happens sometimes. I've had to take guns away from people before. Most of the time its due to a mental health concern. I recently had to take some guns out of Desert Storm Veteran's house. We felt horrible, but the guy has some serious PTSD, and probably would have shot up the neighborhood if we didnt.

    In this case, a woman shot through a wall, having no idea what her target was. If she kept her gun, and shot the next neighborhood kid that was playing hide and seek around her house, it would be my butt on the wrong end of a lawsuit. It sucks, but sometimes you have to make the call.

    As far as a LEO not announcing, I can see that happening, and its not because a LEO is trying to be sneaky. I like to evaluate the situation before giving myself away. It's a balancing act. The flashlight is a good example. You want to use it enough to see whats going on, but not so much as to give away your position unnecessarily. There isnt a perfect balance. When a LEO parks his car 3 houses away and walks up to the house through neighbors yards, its not because he's trying to be shifty. He's just being safer.

    It's been mentioned somewhere (not sure if its this thread or another, sorry) that a LEO should just pull up with his blue lights on. That would be an excellent way to let the homeowner know that its a friendly on his yard. However, it's also a good way to let the BG think "uh oh, better post up behind this tree and hide". Not safe. Giving yourself away isnt a good idea. It's not perfect, and defenitely has drawbacks, but its the safer of the two options. I would like to think that most gun owners know enough to identify a target before blasting away. But obviously, some dont. If she kept her gun, then shot a girl scout through the front door the next day, the LEO would be trying to explain to a judge why the ladies gun wasnt taken away.

    I take it the reason she wasnt charged is that she did not have intent to shoot a LEO. It was an accident. The problem I have is that the accident could have been prevented by simply having a tiny bit of common sense / training. This accident proves that she is a danger to others with a gun. We've all seen the guy thats driving his car while on the phone, reading a book and eating a sandwich all at the same time. When he crashes into a bus full of nun's, he didnt mean to, but his total lack of common sense and regard for safety should be addressed. I have a hard time saying "woops, he didnt mean to" and leaving it at that. Think of the nun's!!
    My problem is that you see nothing wrong with the cops taking someone's property when they have not been charged and will not get due process of the law. I suspect in the case of the inobservant driver & the nuns, the driver will be charged with something or somethings. The penalty may be that he looses his driver's license and maybe a lot of his property ($$$). Fine, but he has, by virtue of being charged, received due process of the law. He has had his chance to fight the charge in court and either plead out or gone to trial.

    In the little old lady's case at hand, she appears to simply have been relieved of her property and sent on her way with NO CHARGES. That is, simply, theft.

    Before you take me totally out of context, in Ohio -v- David N. Rogers, the appeals court stated the following.

    In Ohio, forfeitures are generally not favored in law or equity. State v.
    Johns (1993), 90 Ohio App.3d 456, 459, 629 N.E.2d 1069, citing State v. Lilliock (1982),
    70 Ohio St.2d 23, 25, 434 N.E.2d 723. Whenever possible, statutes imposing
    restrictions upon the use of private property, in derogation of private property rights,
    “must be construed as to avoid a forfeiture of property.” Lilliock at 26, 434 N.E.2d 723,
    citing State ex rel. Jones v. Board of Deputy State Supervisors and Inspectors of
    Elections (1915), 93 Ohio St. 14, 16, 112 N.E. 136.

    Full citation is here http://www.supremecourt.ohio.gov/rod...-ohio-5543.pdf
    Last edited by ksholder; July 14th, 2012 at 08:45 PM.
    Eagleks likes this.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array kb2wji's Avatar
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    ^ I think there is some misunderstanding. In situations like these, her gun isnt "seized". The gun will usually get picked up by a family member or even the owner the next day. The gun is taken from her for safety and liability reasons. If she is going to shoot through walls at unknown targets, its irresponsible to not take the gun away. I know it a long shot, but if she does something stupid like that later in the night, the LEO's are on the pointy end of a lawsuit. It's similar to a LEO stopping a drunk driver and having him call a ride. If the drunk drives again later that night and hurts someone, that LEO is in hot water.

    Her gun is taken, but a release is signed at the same time. A seizure is something very different. If something is seized, there is a five day window to have a judge sign off on it to make it legal. Otherwise, property gets returned. Even if the judge signs off on it, the owner still has the right to have his own hearing to get it back.

    I think some of us may be unclear as to what actually happens to this lady's gun. I would highly doubt its "seized". Much more likely its taken away for the night, and released to her. If for no other reason, check her background. (Mental illness creeping up? History of same? etc...) It has to be checked out before leaving the gun with her, or the LEO's have a liability.

    I'm sure this lady already has her gun back.

    Edit:

    As to her not being charged, it's hardly assault if there is not intent to cause the harm. I dont doubt she did not want to hurt a LEO, thus, that charge isnt filed. Either way, the LEO didnt have much choice but to take her gun. (Again, not SEIZE the gun, just put it up for the night with a release). No charges does not mean she still didnt act in a very stupid and dangerous manner. Thats the reason for the gun being taken, not the charges that may be filed.

    If you flip it around and pretend the LEO shot through a wall, there would be hell raining down on him. The woman would own the city and the cop would be selling his yacht and beach house to pay his legal fees. For this reason, I dont accept the excuse of lack of training or lack of experience for making the error this lady did. I dont care who trains how and why....If in the end you, for whatever reason, shoot at a good guy, it is totally unacceptable. We shouldnt sit back and say "she didnt get charged, so......." we should say "she's lucky she didnt get charged with reckless endangerment"

  15. #30
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    Clearly, we are not going to agree. See you in the next thread.
    It's the Land of Opportunity, not the Land of Entitlements - Vote America!!!

    "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny." Thomas Jefferson

    You are only paranoid until you are right - then you are a visionary.

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