New York City and New York City Idiots
This is a discussion on New York City and New York City Idiots within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Heather Mac Donald: How to Return New York City to the Street Gangs - WSJ.com
Crime in New York City has dropped 80% since the ...
August 11th, 2012 02:43 PM
New York City and New York City Idiots
Heather Mac Donald: How to Return New York City to the Street Gangs - WSJ.com
Crime in New York City has dropped 80% since the early 1990s, a decline unmatched anywhere in the country. The change has yielded an explosion of commerce in once forlorn neighborhoods, a boom in tourism, and a sharp rise in property values. Nowhere were the effects more dramatic than in the city's poorest areas.
New York's previously unimaginable status as America's safest big city is now in jeopardy thanks to a rising campaign against its proactive style of policing. In 1994 the New York Police Department, led then by Commissioner William Bratton, embraced the revolutionary concept that the police could actually prevent crime, not just respond to it after the fact.
This is an unjust result led by those who will not be swayed by facts. It is tragic they will lead NY into the abyss and be held harmless under the countenance of pandering and expediency and correctness. Tragic.
Such proactive stops (or "stop-and-frisks") have averted countless crimes. But a chorus of critics, led by the New York Times, charges that the NYPD's policy is racist because the majority of those stopped are black and Hispanic. Every declared Democratic candidate for mayor in 2013 has vowed to eliminate stop-and-frisks or significantly reduce them. A federal judge overseeing a class-action lawsuit against the NYPD has already announced her conviction that the department's stop practices are unconstitutional, the prelude to putting the department under judicial control.
August 11th, 2012 02:43 PM
August 11th, 2012 03:12 PM
If you want to give up your rights, go ahead, but the policy contradicts the 4th Amendment. Blatantly.
It should have been struck down before it went active.
Making New York City a police state was the direction taken instead of resolving the problem.
The targeting of certain mionorities isn't racist. It's based on facts. It's the most aggressive use of profiling left in America, and it has been used to violate American citizens rights.
August 11th, 2012 03:21 PM
New York is a safe city? Oh yeah 36 years ago when I visited for a day as I waited to ETS out of the USAF we went there,I guess 4 to 6 Cops on every street corner was supposed to make you feel safe
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
August 11th, 2012 03:25 PM
They just don't seem to get the point that profiling is not racism. Actions based upon proven statistics are a smart move.
I don't always have nothing to say, but when I do, I post it on Facebook.
August 11th, 2012 03:28 PM
Well, SFury, I'll just let the Courts make a decision (after Appeals are exhausted) on the Constitutionality and the 4th. I don't really care if some federal judge has "announced" her conviction, if in fact she has done so without hearing the case, she should be impeached unless she recuss' herself. I'll go back and look.
What I find sad is the fact the results speak for themselves (according to the article) and the city is safer (apparently) and so a bunch of folks get all knotted up in their panties. It's the old methods versus results kind of argument. I am a results oriented type person. Maybe that explains it. Maybe I am just profiled as a boring old white man, so I don't care.
I don't know that I consider this a violation of the 4th. I am not a "Constitutional Lawyer" though, thank goodness.
And officers were expected to intervene when they observed someone acting suspiciously—maybe asking the person a few questions, perhaps frisking him if legally justified. In so doing, they sent the message in violence-plagued areas that law and order was still in effect.
I'd like to hear from NY and NYC residents on this.
August 11th, 2012 03:58 PM
Wow, just saved myself another forum violation. Sometimes when you deal with the people committing the crimes, it looks like profiling, funny how things work that way.
You can educate ignorance, you can't fix stupid
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August 11th, 2012 04:19 PM
Duke yes NYC is very safe. Come vist but please leave your guns at home.
People were complaining about the Stop and Frisk until there were a couple of kids that got shot and one dies. Now Stop and Frisk is a OK.
Lets face fact. The police are not SaFisking people in the white sections on the neighborhood because 90 percent of the crime is committed in the black and latino sections. If the same crime stats were in the white section the police would be fisking them too. If you knew that 90 percent of people speed on one road you would set up enforcement on that road make sense right.
There are sections of Brooklyn and Bronx and Nyc that if not for the enforcement of the police after dark people would be prisioners in their own home.
You do not know, what you do not know, until you realize that you do not know it
August 11th, 2012 08:33 PM
Everyone agrees this 'stop & frisk' approach is effective... but a lot of what goes on with this policy is a violation of the 4th A.
I have a friend who's a NYC cop, and he was pressured to do this...and hated it.
On the one hand, you have government policies that intentionally undermine & destroy the traditional family (look at the stats concerning single parent households in NYC),
and then when uneducated/unemployed teens turn to gangs/crime...the terrified citizenry demands that the government come down heavy.
So many of society's problems are the direct result of the government replacing the father/husband in home... (provider/protector).
And it's done to buy votes and increase power and control.
Think about it.
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August 11th, 2012 09:04 PM
Careful. "The ends justify the means" is a slippery slope, when it comes to our liberties.
The more good folks carry guns, the fewer shots the crazies can get off.
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August 11th, 2012 09:08 PM
I am curious about the complaints about profiling. A friend of mine left my old department and went to work for Metro Transit Police. After about a year he got written up by a supervisor and sent to a cultural diversity class because he was arresting a disproportionately high number of hispanics based on the population of the D.C. metro area. The problem was that when you look at the deomgraphics of the area he worked (by zip code) he was statistically arresting too many non minorities.
Simply saying that police are stopping and frisking one particular group more than another means nothing.
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August 11th, 2012 10:56 PM
My question there is, what was the demographics of the area your friend patrolled?
Sometimes the people traveling through an area are not the representation of the people that live in that area. Transportation hubs can be that way in particular. Especially when the hub is used predominately by the neighborhoods near the hub.
We had a bus station in a predominately white neighborhood that was used mostly by the Hmong that lived in the neighborhood several blocks away. It was the nearest station to that neighborhood so they walked to it.
August 11th, 2012 11:32 PM
It just so happens he was working an area that was predominantly hispanic. One of the reasons he was assigned there is because he speaks Spanish. He also took arrests for other officers that didnt speak Spanish because it was easier for him to interrogate and process the prisoners.
August 11th, 2012 11:45 PM
Stop and Frisk.
Sounds good to politicians, because they dont get stopped and frisked.
So lets get this straight, I go visit NYC and I get stopped and frisked for the simple reason that I am there.
No other city in America would put up with this crap.Well, maybe Chicago and San Fransico,which are liberal havens for socialists, but that would be about it.
I think that if I was on patrol in my huge city of 1200, and I started stopping and frisking everyone that I met that was not familiar to me, I would get called up on the carpet and told to cease or be fired. What ever happened to "probably cause"? What reason could a cop articulate to a Judge that he had a valid reason to stpp me and frisk me?
That might be common practice in the cesspool of NYC, but no where else would it fly. In fact, in my small world, I dont even know of a single cop that would support an action like that. Doing it just to do it is ridiculous. Yeah, I know that its all about sacrificing a bit of liberty for peace and safety, but we all know where that leads.
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August 12th, 2012 10:37 AM
The problem as I understand it is the original S&F was supposed to be a "Terry" S&F which the LEOs had previously been forbidden to do by their superiors, but instead morphed into a "Because I can" S&F.
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August 12th, 2012 01:55 PM
Up untill the election of Rudolph Gulliani the NYPD had a very strict Stop and Frisk policy dictated by their own legal bureau. Until then the NYPD guarded jealously the rights of the individual citizen. Also there was no shrtage of legal laid lawyers, paid defense lawyers, and 18-B lawyers working to protect the individuals rights. Also the County district attorneys would never procede with a prosicution of a constitutionally tainted case. This made justice sure if not so swift. In that policy stopping a person on the gounds of their race ,age gender, or sexual preeferrence had better be backed up by some serious mittigating circumstance. As I was taught in the NYPD Police academy in 1973 a stop and frisk may be performed if an officer had artucluable suspicion that a person had commited a crime (misdemenor or felony) or was about to commit one. The Officer may make a cursery frisk of the outer clothing for weapons in the interest of the Officers safety. Then procede to question or have a conversation with the individual. Any weapons found would be admissable as long as the stop was constitutional. Statements would be admissable as long as the subject was free to walk away, and these statements could be further used to establish probable cause. That being a much higher level of suspicion enableing the officer to take the subject into custody. I can truthefully say that it worked.
Having been a Police Officer in NYC for 25 years I can say I was there. I was there for these changes, and this is what ultimately led to my retirement. There are things that I WILL NOT DO!
William Bratton was appointed the PC of NY. He came from the NY Transit Police where he served as Chief of the department. Bratton DID NOT! author the current stop and frisk policies. In policing there are several theories of operation. Bratton adhered to the "Broken windows" policy. This is basically an aggressive policing policy. The theory is the first indication that a neighborhood is declining is you see more broken windows. If the windows are replaced, and repared the dcline can be slowed, and reversed. Well there's a lot more to it but thats the gist of it. Bratton's policy was to enforce all laws no matter how seemingly insignificant. And it worked. It worked really well... we took care of the simple things and the bigger things kind of tapered off. An example being if there was a large hang out area that brung trouble to a particular neighborhood. They would issue all kinds of parking violations, and tow cars... the result is no more hanging out there, no more resultant trouble.
Brattons broken window policing policy, along with a program started under a previous P/C called the Career Criminal Investigation/apprehension program. Caused the crime level in NY to go down. However the biggest effect on the crime level was from the economy.
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