bad, ugly- was it a firing squad or justified?

This is a discussion on bad, ugly- was it a firing squad or justified? within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I find it very troubling that none of the dash cams work.. Sent from my palm device...

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Thread: bad, ugly- was it a firing squad or justified?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array blitzburgh's Avatar
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    I find it very troubling that none of the dash cams work..

    Sent from my palm device
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  3. #17
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by blitzburgh View Post
    I find it very troubling that none of the dash cams work..

    Sent from my palm device
    We service a variety of dash cams and its not that outlandish that multiple units are down. We see a LOT of units coming in for repair and most times replacements are not on hand. Departments may not have enough cars to keep ones with downed dash came out of service.

    As for the article:
    I'm stunned that six human beings would stand in front of one human being and fire 46 shots," Jewel Hall said. "I just don't understand that. It's a lot of pain in that because it only takes one shot, so the question is why?"

    We all know that's bs. 6 officers, 46 shots is about 8rds per officer and in cases like that its not uncommon for multiple offficers open up when a threat emerges. All of them see that action and respond.

    Can't watch the video on the phone, just some initial thoughts on the matter.

    Sent via Tapatalk, and still using real words.

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cupcake View Post
    I'm not sure on this, but isn't a police dog considered to be an officer (ie: if you injure a police dog it is considered assault or battery on an officer?) If that's so, wouldn't lethal force be justifiable to protect even a police dog?

    In any case, no way is an officer (or even a handful of them) obligated or even smart to expose themselves to that kind of risk. Would the cops have won had they gone in bare handed? Sure. Is there a very good possibility that at least one of them might have gotten knifed doing so? Yup. You present a lethal force you get a lethal response.
    Then why have a police dog? What is it for? Why waste money training it and paying a police officer to be with it full time?

    The dog is trained to go for the hand with the knife. Trust me on this, I've seen them in action, that guy would have been all distracted by the dog. He had no chance against the dog. They could have gotten him under control easily. The dog, police dog or not, is still a dog. It's whole reason for being there is to take risks in place of the officer. They should have used it first since they had it. They didn't and that was a mistake. The predisposition to shoot first if shouting doesn't work is just plain wrong.

    Mowing down civillians out numbered by 6+dog to one in a hail of gunfire, ~8 shots each, is not a reasonable response in this situation. They were still shooting long after he was on the ground and probably dead, not that it matters to the victim. It was thoughtless reflex jacking off on the triggers. Pure mob action. All emotion, no reason. No professionalism in evidence anyplace. Watch the video. Makes me sick.

    Fitch
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  5. #19
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    For those saying he should have been Tased, as HotGuns already stated, Officers are trained that when lethal force is brought against you, you DO NOT meet it with non-lethal force. This man had a knife and refused to drop it when ordered to. He made a move TOWARD an officer while still holding that knife. End the threat. This should be deemed a justified shoot, no matter the round count.
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  6. #20
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    Let's recognize that we are basing our assessments here on one very limited view from a substantial distance. Given the distance and traffic interrupting the recorded view, for example could anyone tell if the guy was reaching for an ankle holster? It doesn't matter if the local cops "knew" him; plenty of cops have been gravely wounded or killed because they let their guard down around a subject they "knew."

    Bottom line, we weren't there, we don't have the 360 degree view of what happened, so let's hold off on the judgements.
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  7. #21
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    No Gene Autry awards, perhaps, but isn't this exactly what the Tueller drill addresses? Once the split-second decision to shoot was made, everybody was all in.
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  8. #22
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    Nice editing job by CNN. Unfortunately you can see what maybe they don't want us to. When the bystander comments on him being in a karate stance notice the officer to left of the subject. We lose sight of him during the traffic flow. After the subject goes down and after the camera moves around the Suburban you can see two officers that he was advancing on come into view from behind the plants. You don't get a good look at them because they cut away to the witness statement.

    I wonder why.
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  9. #23
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  10. #24
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    I've watched the video a couple of times trying to see what was happening. Am I wrong in thinking that the person with the knife had turned and was walking away from the officers when he was shot? Thats the way it looks to me but maybe I'm missing something. If thats what happened and he was not turning to go after another person the police were wrong.

    Just a wild guess but I might be inclined to believe that one cop might have unintentionally fired his weapon causing a chain reaction. It has happened in the past.

    Michael

  11. #25
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    I had a "when to taser" conversation with a local LEO friend just last week and there are some pretty simple guidelines that his department follows.
    Don't taser a person who is running, because falling from a run is more likely to result in injury to the target.
    Don't taser a person with a deadly weapon (of any kind) if they are close enough to be a threat (to anyone), rather draw on them and demand they drop the weapon. If they will not drop the weapon and/or make an aggressive move, drop the target without hesitation.

    The fact the a significant number of the LEO's on scene made the same call at the same time is actually a good indication that a real threat was perceived and the kill was justified. While 46 shots may seem excessive to someone watching that video and reading a news article, most people don't understand how stressful situations like that can narrow and focus an officer's field of perception to a point that he may not realize his fellow officers are also shooting to stop a threat. I would not be surprised if one or more of those involved, at the time, though they were the only ones shooting.
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  12. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billspider View Post
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    That pretty much sums it up.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoppo View Post
    :SNIP:
    While 46 shots may seem excessive to someone watching that video and reading a news article, most people don't understand how stressful situations like that can narrow and focus an officer's field of perception to a point that he may not realize his fellow officers are also shooting to stop a threat. I would not be surprised if one or more of those involved, at the time, though they were the only ones shooting.
    Its like the start of a race. When one runner jumps prematurely they all jump. Reflex action. Also agree on the 46 shots being fired. If only one person had a firearm and completely unloaded it on a perceived attacker we would not even consider it worthwhile to discuss. You continue firing until the threat is gone. Take that one person times six and you easily end up with 46 shots being fired.

    Michael

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    I do question why the dog was not used. While the family, their lawyers, activists and the media would still cry foul the man would probably still be alive. The dog was expendable.

    Michael

  15. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I do question why the dog was not used. While the family, their lawyers, activists and the media would still cry foul the man would probably still be alive. The dog was expendable.

    Michael
    Dirtbag with a knife is far more expendable.
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  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array Ghettokracker71's Avatar
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    Okay, we all know it doesn't take 46 shots to incapacitate a human and stop the threat.

    If the first shot is fatal, other than wasting ammo what does it matter about the other 45 shots fired?


    "To blame a gun for a mans decision is to foolishly attribute free will to an inanimate object"- Colion Noir.

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