bad, ugly- was it a firing squad or justified?

This is a discussion on bad, ugly- was it a firing squad or justified? within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; It's hard to see and hear in this video and hard to make judgments IMO. When confronted with someone with a weapon officers want to ...

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Thread: bad, ugly- was it a firing squad or justified?

  1. #31
    Senior Member Array Lish's Avatar
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    It's hard to see and hear in this video and hard to make judgments IMO. When confronted with someone with a weapon officers want to live through the encounter to get home to their families. Part of me, my heart hurts that a mentally ill man was killed when the dog may have been able to stop the threat. Part of me understands when officers are confronted with someone with a weapon the game changes and they want to get through the encounter with no injury or loss of life to officers.

    Several years ago locally, there was an officer killed during a traffic stop. When the guy was found in the woods, he was told to drop his weapon and didn't. (Admittedly this is a different situation in that he was already a known deadly threat to LEO) Deputies shot him a total of 68 times. When the media jumped on why he shot so many times the sheriff's answer was simply - 'that's all the bullets we had or we'd have shot him more. Quite frankly we weren't taking any chances"

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array BigJon10125's Avatar
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    "alright guys you each get 2 shots each so we do not offend anyone, make em count!"
    sigmanluke, WHEC724 and msgt/ret like this.
    BigJon


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  4. #33
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    I watched that video a couple of times and at least half the shots the man was down so where was the threat? The first couple of rounds took him down the rest were unjust and overkill. I don't agree with sending in the dog, why risk the dog when he is set on using the knife. I like to think we spend money to train officers to deal with the Adrenalin dump and anger but this is a major fail.
    Some say 6 rounds a peace but I think what we will see if released is some shot a couple of times and other emptied their mag’s

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ghettokracker71 View Post
    Okay, we all know it doesn't take 46 shots to incapacitate a human and stop the threat.

    If the first shot is fatal, other than wasting ammo what does it matter about the other 45 shots fired?
    If your family open fired on someone crawling in through your bedroom window and put 46 rounds into them do you honestly believe it would not be questioned. Not saying I wouldn't be fine with the shoot, just that it would be questioned.
    My problem would be if the same police supervisor who says this is a good shoot was the one to say you as a homeowner acted excessively.

    Michael

  6. #35
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    Asesinato de Policia - YouTube

    Better video of knife attack by deranged man against police.

    The action really starts at 7:29.
    Utah Concealed Firearms Certified Instructor

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    no effort was made to Taser him
    Police Tasers have an effective range of 21 feet. Someone with a knife could close 21 feet in very little time (Hence the Tueller drill). You'd think someone with supposed experience with firearms would understand that, but alas....

  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Gene83's Avatar
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    With a little cut and paste, the story reads a little differently...

    Jewel Hall said her son had once trained as a civil right activist, been an avid reader and played football. He had lived in Saginaw for 35 years and received Social Security disability payments for a mental illness, but, "He knew his rights."

    Saginaw Police Chief Gerald Cliff said Hall was "known to be an assaultive person" with "a long history" of contacts with law enforcement, "not only with police from our department but with the county."

    Police said Hall had just had a run-in with a convenience store clerk. On the video, he tells police, "My name is Milton Hall, I just called 911. My name is Milton, and I'm p---ed off." When an officer tells him to put the knife down, he responds, "I ain't putting *expletive deleted* down." He appears unimpressed by a police dog, telling officers, "Let him go. Let the *expletive deleted* dog go."


    I'm questioning why if his family cared about him, they didn't supervise him more closely. Apparently, he had a history. It was only a matter of time before something bad happened.
    Last edited by gasmitty; August 17th, 2012 at 03:20 PM. Reason: language
    "The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come." ~ Confucius

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array NC Bullseye's Avatar
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    Interesting. For those of you screaming that 46 shots are too many, how many of those 46 shots were even on target and of those, how many were incapacitating enough to end shooting?


    Remember the interesting statistic that only 15% of shots fired in a LE confrontation hit the target? Sad, but if true in this case that means about 7 hits and of those what would be considered incapacitating?

    I didn't see where the number of hits was reported. I may have missed that.


    Carry on.
    JD likes this.
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  10. #39
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by linuss View Post
    Police Tasers have an effective range of 21 feet. Someone with a knife could close 21 feet in very little time (Hence the Tueller drill). You'd think someone with supposed experience with firearms would understand that, but alas....
    I agree and that is why I am not pushing it, all I am saying is it was an option we have seen before on other knife welding people but no one had one in their hands. What I will say is for a bunch of people that talk about how their high dollar guns and ammo has such stopping power; was 46 times too many when the threat was stopped in the first couple of shots?

    And what I said is that if this was a civilian shooting all would have been arrested and charged. After what shot did the law stop being up held and street justice come in? We have a check and balance system in place for a reason; to keep things like this from getting out of hand.

    we had a shooting here in Dallas a month or so ago and the cop was justified but he only shot 3 times until the threat was stopped. I watched this video and I see the guy roll over like a dog and they keep on shooting; did they think he was going to get up?

  11. #40
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    I think they did a very poor job. If they would have sent the dog, and upon contact immediately tasered him it would have been over. The officers obviously thought the health of that dog was more important than the mans life that they shot 40 something times.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Billspider View Post
    Asesinato de Policia - YouTube

    Better video of knife attack by deranged man against police.

    The action really starts at 7:29.
    Gruesome, but required viewing for anyone who would argue strongly that a half-dozen armed cops are overwhelming odds against one man with a knife. Looks like two cops wee killed?
    Smitty
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  13. #42
    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by linuss View Post
    Police Tasers have an effective range of 21 feet. Someone with a knife could close 21 feet in very little time (Hence the Tueller drill). You'd think someone with supposed experience with firearms would understand that, but alas....
    What does knowledge about firearms have to do with the effective range of police tasers?

  14. #43
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    What happened to beanbags?
    3 of them to the crotch, and that guy is going down like a drunk stripper.
    On the other hand, the loss for mankind isn't all that great.

  15. #44
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    What does knowledge about firearms have to do with the effective range of police tasers?
    I didn’t know what the affective distance is but now I do. So now at the 1:50 mark the man is down... count how many rounds are shot after the threat ended? I don’t question that the police didn’t do what they though was right what I question is the excessiveness that was done and the loss of control and I believe this is what the general public sees too


  16. #45
    Member Array linuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    What does knowledge about firearms have to do with the effective range of police tasers?
    Re-read my post. I never said he should have known the effective range, however it's not beyond reasoning for him to know about the Tueller drill, and the ~20 foot range.


    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    I agree and that is why I am not pushing it, all I am saying is it was an option we have seen before on other knife welding people but no one had one in their hands.
    Someone pulls a knife on me and the first thing I go for isn't a less-than-lethal option... Force with force.

    And what I said is that if this was a civilian shooting all would have been arrested and charged.
    I agree if a group of civilians had been in the same situation with the same amount of rounds fired, there'd be issues, but your seemingly biggest initial point was "Why didn't they choose an LTL route" and not "Why did they shoot so much?"

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