Police -- acting under a state law that allows emergency, temporary psychiatric com..

This is a discussion on Police -- acting under a state law that allows emergency, temporary psychiatric com.. within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Sig35seven There are some exceptions to the 1st amendment. One of these limitations is 'speech that 'incites imminent lawless action' which is ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    There are some exceptions to the 1st amendment. One of these limitations is 'speech that 'incites imminent lawless action' which is what it appears he was doing.

    With the other nuts that have recently acted out you can bet they will be looking for any signs of insanity.
    It normally requires a specific threat against an individual or target. "Kill them all and let God sort them out" is not a specific threat. Kill Larry Moe and Curly would be a specific threat.
    Threats of Violence Against Individuals :: First Amendment--Religion and Expression :: US Constitution :: US Codes and Statutes :: US Law :: Justia
    Threats of Violence Against Individuals.—The Supreme Court has cited three “reasons why threats of violence are outside the First Amendment”: “protecting individuals from the fear of violence, from the disruption that fear engenders, and from the possibility that the threatened violence will occur.”980 In Watts v. United States, however, the Court held that only “true” threats are outside the First Amendment.981 The defendant in Watts, at a public rally at which he was expressing his opposition to the military draft, said, “If they ever make me carry a rifle, the first man I want to get in my sights is L.B.J.”982 He was convicted of violating a federal statute that prohibited “any threat to take the life of or to inflict bodily harm upon the President of the United States.” The Supreme Court reversed. Interpreting the statute “with the commands of the First Amendment clearly in mind,”983 it found that the defendant had not made a “true ‘threat,”’ but had indulged in mere “political hyperbole.”984
    Michael

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  3. #17
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    I agree that this seems like an over reach, but I have yet to see what he actually posted just what the news reported (I haven't really looked for his posts).

    But if the government doesn't like you they can make you have a really bad time
    atctimmy and msgt/ret like this.
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Hmmm.... some have said that Holmes in Aurora went off the deep end quickly, a psychiatrist reported him... Some have said we need better mental health care... Is this what that would lead to?

    Just questions... no answers...
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array CanuckQue's Avatar
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    Mental illness cuts right to the quick of a LOT of concerns that gun owners worry about. We don't want wackos handling guns, but we're worried about giving the gov't the right to stop people. We don't want the police to be able to detain us, but we want those who're honestly, truly sick to be able to get help. I had to deal with a mentally ill family member, and it sucked. There was no way to get them help until after he'd hurt someone.

    Honestly, mental illness is the twig in the spokes of a great deal of political theory regarding freedoms, good society, and good governance. I wish we could speed up research to defeat it ...
    atctimmy likes this.
    Our current plan for Universal Iron Lung coverage, just sayin'.
    Wisest. Retirement. Plan. Ever.
    Good thing the March of Dimes worked. How, why?

    Alternately, for those with a tool shed, ideas, or creative loved ones to tell..


  6. #20
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    This issue strikes home with me because of what I was taught growing up in the sixties. It was constantly pointed out how while we had freedom of speech, expecially when it comes to political speech, other countries did not. That in those other countries people were locked up in Insane Asylums if they spoke out against their governments. They used their mental health policies to stifle unwanted speech.
    Remember when the U.S. was actively working for the release of different dissidents in the Soviet Union who had been locked up in mental hospitals for years because of what the wrote or said.

    Michael

  7. #21
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    This issue strikes home with me because of what I was taught growing up in the sixties. It was constantly pointed out how while we had freedom of speech, expecially when it comes to political speech, other countries did not. That in those other countries people were locked up in Insane Asylums if they spoke out against their governments. They used their mental health policies to stifle unwanted speech.
    Remember when the U.S. was actively working for the release of different dissidents in the Soviet Union who had been locked up in mental hospitals for years because of what the wrote or said.

    Michael
    we've had a sad history of similar here, as well.... Google Eugenics...
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    So lets take it to the next step: Based on the events in the past month, i.e., Colo and the Wi shootings, should the LEO be monitoring the web to prevent these type of shootings?

    And some wonder why I don't have a FaceBook page!
    Not saying if they should or shouldn't be monitoring the web. I will say that there is nothing in the Constitution to prevent them form doing it.

    Michael

  9. #23
    Member Array Roon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by onacoma View Post
    So lets take it to the next step: Based on the events in the past month, i.e., Colo and the Wi shootings, should the LEO be monitoring the web to prevent these type of shootings?

    And some wonder why I don't have a FaceBook page!
    I would rather be afforded the inconveniences associated with to much liberty than the other way around. So no, no extra monitoring should take place regardless of the severity of the crimes committed. Stuff happens, life is hard...buy a helmet.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    This issue strikes home with me because of what I was taught growing up in the sixties. It was constantly pointed out how while we had freedom of speech, expecially when it comes to political speech, other countries did not. That in those other countries people were locked up in Insane Asylums if they spoke out against their governments. They used their mental health policies to stifle unwanted speech.
    Remember when the U.S. was actively working for the release of different dissidents in the Soviet Union who had been locked up in mental hospitals for years because of what the wrote or said.

    Michael
    But they belonged in those mental hospitals because everyone knew you had to be nuts to speak out against the party in those countries.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  11. #25
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    But they belonged in those mental hospitals because everyone knew you had to be nuts to speak out against the party in those countries.
    LOL, that was the popular joke at the time. If the government can do no wrong then speaking out against it would have to be proof of insanity.

    Michael

  12. #26
    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    This really isn't anything new. Involuntary mental evaluations happen on a pretty regular basis. There are a few ways that I am familiar with.

    Family or friends can go before a judge and request an order. If they are able to meet certain criteria, then the judge issues an order for the person to be taken into custody and transported for mental health evaluation usually lasting 72 hours . Local LE receives the order and many times uses EMS to transport the person. At that point the person has no choice in the matter at all.

    Family or friends call 911 and say that this person is threatening someone or themselves. Sometimes police are sent, sometimes EMS is sent and sometimes both. The person is interviewed, if the person displays a normal level of mental status and does not appear to be a threat, there really isn't much that can be done. The family/friends needs to go to court to seek an order.

    However is person has a altered level of mental status, appears to be a threat to themselves or makes threats against others, then they will be transported. We always tried to talk the person into going in for a voluntary evaluation. It is simply easier and safer for everyone involved. If they refused to be transported, medical control would advise us to transport the person against their wishes for their own safety. They would be restrained and transported.

    Then at the hospital, then mental health staff would start the evaluation process which could consist of a short interview or a confinement.
    troutkiller likes this.
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

    Stupidity should be painful.

  13. #27
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Roon View Post
    That is one SCARY law in Virginia.
    A law coming to a country you live in..........
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
    --Thomas B. Reed, American Attorney

    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array Crowman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    The government can detain you with out charge or trial that's part of the Patriot Act it's suppose to be for "Really Bad Terrorists" but who decides who's a terrorist?
    Personally I have been dead set against the Patriot Act since day one. That said......... The Patriot Act is the most perfect tool to use against gangs in America. I think it would hard pressed to find people that will say gang members are not domestic terrorists (OK some of their Mothers might). It is my understanding if "they" tag someone as a domestic terrorists they basically do not have any rights. So why is it that the government chooses not to deal with gangs using the Patriot Act.
    "One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation."
    --Thomas B. Reed, American Attorney

    Second Amendment -- Established December 15, 1791 and slowly eroded ever since What happened to "..... shall not be infringed."

  15. #29
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    They need to lock him up and evaluate him; do we need to wait for him to kill some? FACEBOOK is public and anyone and everyone has the right to monitor it as it is here too.

    It is not normal for someone to post "I am going to sever heads" and anti-government posts AFTER you been to war. Some say his rights are violated; I say tough! 30 days of his life is worth it if it means that it will save someone else’s life

    And if they want the can arrest him for “breach of peace” after all he did disrupt the public by posting hate messages

    I just got back from the VA hospital and one of the first questions the nurse asked me did I feel depressed or wanted to kill myself or others. They are screening vets heavily for any sign of depression. I wasn't rude but I told her that I had a CHL and I was in no way feeling any of that and if she asked me continued with any form of that kind of questioning I was walking out. That’s all I need is for someone to write in my medical file that I am depressed and then have to use my gun in a self-defense situation. Great way to lose a court case

  16. #30
    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    In some states, all it takes to lose your gun rights is being "involuntarily commited". I wonder what his court costs will be to clear this up, and who reported him.

    I understand the need to be proactive, but "arresting" someone, but then not having it be an arrest, and held without trial or hearing for 30 days in a mental facility sounds like kidnapping and false imprisonment to me.
    Hoganbeg likes this.
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