New Video: Empire State Bldg: WHY There Were Multiple Shots: - Page 2

New Video: Empire State Bldg: WHY There Were Multiple Shots:

This is a discussion on New Video: Empire State Bldg: WHY There Were Multiple Shots: within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by detective No time to use sights I don't think, they were moving both to the left side trying to "scrunch" themselves up ...

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 44
Like Tree5Likes

Thread: New Video: Empire State Bldg: WHY There Were Multiple Shots:

  1. #16
    Member Array troutkiller's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    No time to use sights I don't think, they were moving both to the left side trying to "scrunch" themselves up behind objects near the street, then the first cop who fired was running to the left and getting distance while firing - the second cop may have, he had a second more than the first.

    I read a study once on night-sights and their use in actual gunfights. I think most questioned were police but some civilians also. Now its not the same as day, on the other hand the sights stand out usually more if they are night sights. The question was: "Did you have time to use sighting" No one did actually sight with them, as in using all three. The most that some could do was lay a momentary touch with the front sight on the target. Nothing else, no real aiming, no time - mostly point shooting with a little help from front sight. That was it.
    According to a 2010 NYPD report, only one officer in the 52 involved in shootings that year reported using his sights. The dep't also encourages officers to use two hands not one when firing. Point and shoot, baby, point and shoot. The perp was down six seconds after pulling his weapon from the bag. Not many bystanders once they realized what was going down.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/25/ny...lows.html?_r=1

  2. #17
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    buffalo NY
    Posts
    952
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    I'm guessing that everyone who caught spall were included in the total number of bystanders hit.
    Must have, they announced so quickly that none were wounded at all seriously. Most anything else as a wound would be in doubt until numerous medical test had been run on them.

  3. #18
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    buffalo NY
    Posts
    952
    Quote Originally Posted by Roon View Post
    The cop in the rear is 1 handing it, and we are surprised at the amount of collateral damage?
    What can he do, wait and radio his partner to begin firing first as he is struck from a 45 in the chest? A killer with a 45 pointing at him is about to fire Right Now.You're asking people to die. He has no choice nor has the other. As well, if he stays where he is he and his partner are so close together with his partner between himself and the killer that he can't shoot - and they both will die so close to each other (and to the killer). If he backs into the street the shooter hits all the people on the street or in cars directly behind the officer, also he would be backing into a street with more cars able to hit him than some states have: it's the Empire State Bldg in Mid-Town Manhattan. He has one direction left to go to both separate from his partner and have the least people at risk and his partner at no risk when he fires, which he has to do Now. Time has stopped.

  4. #19
    Member Array Roon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    MN
    Posts
    265
    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    What can he do, wait and radio his partner to begin firing first? A killer with a 45 pointing at him is about to fire Right Now.You're asking people to die. He has no choice nor has the other.
    I am not asking anyone to die. I am asking him to do what he was trained to do. Both hands on the weapon, his partner managed to do it.

  5. #20
    Member Array tricolordad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Location
    New Richmond, Wisconsin
    Posts
    490
    No disrespect intended to all you LEOs, but I have to point a few things out. What I'm not getting about all these police being such inaccurate shots...why doesn't somebody teach them about grabbing cover and returning with controlled bursts?! Assuming that they HAVE to return fire, if it overpenetrates like it did this time then you can at least say "I tried my hardest to minimize collateral damage by utilizing my training but fate had other plans." I was caught in a holdup at a Domino's when I was a kid and as soon as I saw the BG draw, I ducked back around the corner by the bathroom and pulled my foster brother with me. All I thought about was putting something solid between me and him...I wonder why so many cops don't have that instinct? The LEO on the left of the screen, had a concrete planter to put between himself and the BG. It wasn't that big but it WAS concrete and filled with soil...but he still stood and didn't use the cover offered by it.

    Now the other thing I noticed immediately...the second officer retreated from the open to a position AT HIS PARTNER'S SIX with the gun drawn. Probably a well meaning cop, but he is soooo poorly trained. I blame his superiors and the State of New York for that.

  6. #21
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Kings Mill, Ohio
    Posts
    16,324
    The bad guy went from initially producing a weapon to dying on the pavement in about six seconds. While the LEO techniques might not all merit a 10, I will certainly give them an 8.5.
    "Preparation and mindset are everything. Allowing one's mouth to write checks that one's butt is unable or unwilling to cash is foolish."

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,030
    Remember back in NJ years ago with a man holding a knife to a woman's throat on the sidewalk in front of their apartment........LE hold up behind their cars ordering him to drop the knife......man cut's womans throat, she dies........22 shots fired.....BG hit once in the ankle.
    Training...........IMO can never be stressed enough.....one actually trains months, years for that brief moment of mayhem...and it's all over in seconds....hopefully you survive it.
    IMO...........I believe 8 innocents down at that close encounter by professionals is appauling.....yes I understand moving off the X and fireing, but that's when traing takes over and you shots are directed towards your objective....not spray and pray.
    I don't think the inaccuracy of the officers involved should be overlooked just because they are LE......and that no one else was critically wounded by their gunfire was just a matter of luck.
    A situation like this is what we all discuss here daily..............an active shooter / man with a gun......don't believe anyone here would ever considder taking out 8 innocents.....that's why we train.
    In retrospect, I knew even before the PC report that those down were due to Police fire.......

    Their attorney's should have a field day......
    macg19 likes this.

  8. #23
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    buffalo NY
    Posts
    952
    Quote Originally Posted by troutkiller View Post
    According to a 2010 NYPD report, only one officer in the 52 involved in shootings that year reported using his sights. The dep't also encourages officers to use two hands not one when firing. Point and shoot, baby, point and shoot. The perp was down six seconds after pulling his weapon from the bag. Not many bystanders once they realized what was going down.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/25/ny...lows.html?_r=1
    Right, bystanders in the video got out as soon as they saw guns.

    I practice a little with aiming but most point shooting, I really think as a civilian that's what it would require. My God, look how fast this happened: DrawPointShoot
    and it's over. Wink of an eye..

  9. #24
    Member Array macg19's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Southern CA
    Posts
    208
    Quoted from 'In The Gravest Extreme'

    Jim Cirillo, police firearms authority who blew away eight men in eight gunfights and never took a bullet, told me that he never crouched when he fired: he stood up straight, held the gun in both hands, lined up the sights deliberately, and killed the criminals who were shooting at him from the hip. This lining up of sights is ignored by most "gun experts" who advocate instinctive shooting.

    end quote

    There is more but I think this makes the point.
    "A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
    -Douglas Adams

  10. #25
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    buffalo NY
    Posts
    952
    Quote Originally Posted by xXxplosive View Post
    Remember back in NJ years ago with a man holding a knife to a woman's throat on the sidewalk in front of their apartment........LE hold up behind their cars ordering him to drop the knife......man cut's womans throat, she dies........22 shots fired.....BG hit once in the ankle.
    Training...........IMO can never be stressed enough.....one actually trains months, years for that brief moment of mayhem...and it's all over in seconds....hopefully you survive it.
    IMO...........I believe 8 innocents down at that close encounter by professionals is appauling.....yes I understand moving off the X and fireing, but that's when training takes over and your shots are directed towards your objective....not spray and pray.
    I don't think the inaccuracy of the officers involved should be overlooked just because they are LE......and that no one else was critically wounded by their gunfire was just a matter of luck.
    A situation like this is what we all discuss here daily..............an active shooter / man with a gun......don't believe anyone here would ever considder taking out 8 innocents.....that's why we train.
    Training was there, time to do anything different but shoot when and how they did wasn't - and I do not think you or us would have survived and been able to kill the killer. You, like them, would have had to DawPointShoot in a beat. And I do not believe we would have been that fast nor known to separate giving one of the two officers a better chance of surviving and so having to shoot while moving sideways and backwards you would have hit as many times as the officer does.

    Look at that video and tell us what you would do different not knowing someone would pull a 45 out of carrying-case while 6' away from you. I think that is misplaced confidence and assumption and not reacting to the reality of the video seen or the length of time shots had to continue before the killer went down. You also forget the wounds were not life threatening and likely not missed shots that went directly into bystanders in line of fire. As has been mentioned, they likely were parts of bullets that splintered, shot away from bystanders.

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _

    Then there was the other more recent NYPD episode in contrast to the N Jersey one: mental guy in Brooklyn Heights, stones throw from Manhattan, lots of shops on streets, this mental guy with a big knife runs at at grocer, front of his store and slits his throat, dead. He wanders down the street and simultaneously scores of cops rush out of cars or run in the streets to him as he grabs a young woman, sitting at side-walk restaurant, gets her down to a crouch, kneels behind her and puts the knife to her throat. Police report shows first 3 officers rushing in, who stop immediately with the hostage seen, are told by their supervisor to triangulate around victim and killer, one in front of hostage and killer two off to the sides but angled in so they they can see the hostage and the killer behind her clearly and distinct from one another (the killer and the girl with knife to her throat).

    This next must have been communicated by radio the three cops had ear-pieces for: Supervisor asks each in turn if they have a shot, two say No, one on one side says Yes. Permission to fire is given. He fires just once at the killer's neck so he is immediately paralyzed and his arms and hands can't move the knife, he falls down dead. Cops are all over the hostage protecting her and getting he out once killer is down.

    The cops, all 3, were lauded for not reacting to the shot and firing themselves, likely hitting the girl --- and the guy who shot but once to make sure hostage had no other danger but one shot, resisting impulse to fire again and again.

    So, that one was text book, but there was time to give orders and set something up.

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,030
    Yup.............Accuracy is everything...............as Wyatt Earp professed.

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    3,030
    Hmmmmmmmm............sounds too much like the movie the Untouchables with K. Cosner to me.....I dunno on that one.

  13. #28
    VIP Member
    Array ppkheat's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Louisiana
    Posts
    4,410
    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    Not much they can do besides engage when there's an active shooter if that's what your post is: criticism- watch it again, the man pulls a 45 out of his carrying-case and points it at the officers about to fire - he may have shot I can't tell - this happens in one second; even if there were not regulations about shooting an active shooter and I think there are - what else are they supposed to do: die? And leave a crowded street to a shooter so that he can AIM AT and shoot others after he already killed one 2 min before. .......>They shrink off center to try to avoid getting hit behind those little trees or whatever and a parking-sign pole but the man just moves his gun right at them. They have no time to find a better shooting position - the second police officer found a slightly better one in the second the first one was firing (while running to his side to have more distance) - but they have Right Now. What would you do - as a police officer?

    Better watch it again though, you have 0 seconds to do whatever different.
    Absolutely, no criticism on my part whatsoever, my point was directed to the citizens survival instinct kicking in. I was impressed at their speed and scrambling to get out of the line of fire.

    I made no negative comments about the officers in my post, my point was about the citizens movin' fast !
    Gain a 2A vote, take a fence-sitter shooting.

  14. #29
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    buffalo NY
    Posts
    952
    Quote Originally Posted by Roon View Post
    I am not asking anyone to die. I am asking him to do what he was trained to do. Both hands on the weapon, his partner managed to do it.
    I never criticize anyone in a situation unimaginable to me because I was never in it, and if I was in the same unimaginable situation I never criticize them because I was.

  15. #30
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    buffalo NY
    Posts
    952
    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    Absolutely, no criticism on my part whatsoever, my point was directed to the citizens survival instinct kicking in. I was impressed at their speed and scrambling to get out of the line of fire.

    I made no negative comments about the officers in my post, my point was about the citizens movin' fast !
    O, sorry, I get it now!

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •