This is a discussion on New Video: Empire State Bldg: WHY There Were Multiple Shots: within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by detective No time to use sights I don't think, they were moving both to the left side trying to "scrunch" themselves up ...
No disrespect intended to all you LEOs, but I have to point a few things out. What I'm not getting about all these police being such inaccurate shots...why doesn't somebody teach them about grabbing cover and returning with controlled bursts?! Assuming that they HAVE to return fire, if it overpenetrates like it did this time then you can at least say "I tried my hardest to minimize collateral damage by utilizing my training but fate had other plans." I was caught in a holdup at a Domino's when I was a kid and as soon as I saw the BG draw, I ducked back around the corner by the bathroom and pulled my foster brother with me. All I thought about was putting something solid between me and him...I wonder why so many cops don't have that instinct? The LEO on the left of the screen, had a concrete planter to put between himself and the BG. It wasn't that big but it WAS concrete and filled with soil...but he still stood and didn't use the cover offered by it.
Now the other thing I noticed immediately...the second officer retreated from the open to a position AT HIS PARTNER'S SIX with the gun drawn. Probably a well meaning cop, but he is soooo poorly trained. I blame his superiors and the State of New York for that.
The bad guy went from initially producing a weapon to dying on the pavement in about six seconds. While the LEO techniques might not all merit a 10, I will certainly give them an 8.5.
"The Nation that makes a great distinction between its scholars and its warriors will have its thinking done by cowards and its fighting done by fools." - Thucydides
Remember back in NJ years ago with a man holding a knife to a woman's throat on the sidewalk in front of their apartment........LE hold up behind their cars ordering him to drop the knife......man cut's womans throat, she dies........22 shots fired.....BG hit once in the ankle.
Training...........IMO can never be stressed enough.....one actually trains months, years for that brief moment of mayhem...and it's all over in seconds....hopefully you survive it.
IMO...........I believe 8 innocents down at that close encounter by professionals is appauling.....yes I understand moving off the X and fireing, but that's when traing takes over and you shots are directed towards your objective....not spray and pray.
I don't think the inaccuracy of the officers involved should be overlooked just because they are LE......and that no one else was critically wounded by their gunfire was just a matter of luck.
A situation like this is what we all discuss here daily..............an active shooter / man with a gun......don't believe anyone here would ever considder taking out 8 innocents.....that's why we train.
In retrospect, I knew even before the PC report that those down were due to Police fire.......
Their attorney's should have a field day......
Quoted from 'In The Gravest Extreme'
Jim Cirillo, police firearms authority who blew away eight men in eight gunfights and never took a bullet, told me that he never crouched when he fired: he stood up straight, held the gun in both hands, lined up the sights deliberately, and killed the criminals who were shooting at him from the hip. This lining up of sights is ignored by most "gun experts" who advocate instinctive shooting.
There is more but I think this makes the point.
"A common mistake that people make when trying to design something completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete fools."
Look at that video and tell us what you would do different not knowing someone would pull a 45 out of carrying-case while 6' away from you. I think that is misplaced confidence and assumption and not reacting to the reality of the video seen or the length of time shots had to continue before the killer went down. You also forget the wounds were not life threatening and likely not missed shots that went directly into bystanders in line of fire. As has been mentioned, they likely were parts of bullets that splintered, shot away from bystanders.
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Then there was the other more recent NYPD episode in contrast to the N Jersey one: mental guy in Brooklyn Heights, stones throw from Manhattan, lots of shops on streets, this mental guy with a big knife runs at at grocer, front of his store and slits his throat, dead. He wanders down the street and simultaneously scores of cops rush out of cars or run in the streets to him as he grabs a young woman, sitting at side-walk restaurant, gets her down to a crouch, kneels behind her and puts the knife to her throat. Police report shows first 3 officers rushing in, who stop immediately with the hostage seen, are told by their supervisor to triangulate around victim and killer, one in front of hostage and killer two off to the sides but angled in so they they can see the hostage and the killer behind her clearly and distinct from one another (the killer and the girl with knife to her throat).
This next must have been communicated by radio the three cops had ear-pieces for: Supervisor asks each in turn if they have a shot, two say No, one on one side says Yes. Permission to fire is given. He fires just once at the killer's neck so he is immediately paralyzed and his arms and hands can't move the knife, he falls down dead. Cops are all over the hostage protecting her and getting he out once killer is down.
The cops, all 3, were lauded for not reacting to the shot and firing themselves, likely hitting the girl --- and the guy who shot but once to make sure hostage had no other danger but one shot, resisting impulse to fire again and again.
So, that one was text book, but there was time to give orders and set something up.
Yup.............Accuracy is everything...............as Wyatt Earp professed.
Hmmmmmmmm............sounds too much like the movie the Untouchables with K. Cosner to me.....I dunno on that one.
I made no negative comments about the officers in my post, my point was about the citizens movin' fast !
Gain a 2A vote, take a fence-sitter shooting.