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New Video: Empire State Bldg: WHY There Were Multiple Shots:

This is a discussion on New Video: Empire State Bldg: WHY There Were Multiple Shots: within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Here's a 25 yr study that says sights are important. It also notes that with handguns, high visibility front sights work by grabbing the shooter's ...

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Thread: New Video: Empire State Bldg: WHY There Were Multiple Shots:

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Here's a 25 yr study that says sights are important. It also notes that with handguns, high visibility front sights work by grabbing the shooter's attention. Seems that not using sights results in gunfights being ended by luck and amt of lead, using sights (or at least the front one) end them definitively. I've heard another of another study or interview where it was found that gunfights were ended when the officer actually used his sight(s) - maybe it was Cirillo, not sure. As for point shooting, LEO's don't spend enough time practicing to get proficient with their sights, thinking they should attempt point shooting is folly - especially when both they and their target have crowds of citizens as backstops. The first hits win, and using at least the front sight hurries that along.


  2. #32
    Member Array Honk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    If you ever shoot steel targets at close ranges, you will become intimately familiar with many of the characteristics and effects of spall.
    Amen. Never shoot a steel match wearing shorts and low socks

    I was in NY on business when this happened, but luckily I was out on LI, not in Manhattan.
    "Safety is something that happens between your ears, not something you hold in your hands. " Col. Jeff Cooper

    Proud member NRA, VCDL, USPSA, IDPA & DADD ( if you have daughters, you understand )

  3. #33
    Member Array RonM0710's Avatar
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    What so many "Monday Morning Quarterbacks" forget is that moving and shooting while using your sights is a difficult chore. How many of you practice it? I just qualified two days ago with my local department. I consider myself a good shot and I missed three out of 50 rounds, and I was not worrying about the target shooting me any second. Some of my hits could have easily passed through the bad guy and struck innocent bystanders if there had been any behind him (like in NYC). I just read that only 3 bystanders where hit by police bullets, the rest by slag.
    "Lets Be Careful Out There!"

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  4. #34
    VIP Member Array xXxplosive's Avatar
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    This was the comsumate moving off the "X" situation at CQC................they fudged it big time and 8 innocents are lucky to be alive.
    Yeah, they took out the perp and at what expense.............Lack Of Training..........if you call them professionals, then IMO their level of competency was appauling....I know, just doing their job.......Wish Jim C. was around to see this one.

  5. #35
    New Member Array Swmainframe's Avatar
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    The shooter already killed, this means he has nothing to lose, if you would have bumped him on the street at this point you could have lost your life also.

    He thought he was invisible and getting away, probably unaware the construction worker was hawking him.

    All of a sudden 2 cops are confronting him and it looked like he had his firearm already in his hand when they were approaching, all he had to do was raise his weapon at them and he did, they drew and fired and stopped him in a matter of seconds. I think they reacted spot on and I commend them for it. I feel the collateral damage was unavoidable and by luck minimal in the respect there was no loss of life.

    The split second decision they both made probably saved somebody's life, and that somebody will be around to read Monday's morning paper.

    We have to stand by our law enforcement, especially when they stop a threat, I consider them brave and skilled in this situation. They should be commended for it. They did one heck of a job and got to go home to their families.

  6. #36
    Member Array Jdp751's Avatar
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    Hereís the shooting talley:
    Civilian, 5 shots all hitting his intended target and only his target.
    2 Cops, 16 shots, at least 1 to 7 hit itís intended target, the rest hit 9 innocent bystanders.
    Cops are more dangerous than the criminals!

  7. #37
    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdp751 View Post
    Here’s the shooting talley:
    Civilian, 5 shots all hitting his intended target and only his target.
    2 Cops, 16 shots, at least 1 to 7 hit it’s intended target, the rest hit 9 innocent bystanders.
    Cops are more dangerous than the criminals!
    Well, in fairness, it appears that 3 shots hit innocent bystanders. The rest were with with spall (that's our word of the day).
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
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  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jdp751 View Post
    Here’s the shooting talley:
    Civilian, 5 shots all hitting his intended target and only his target.
    2 Cops, 16 shots, at least 1 to 7 hit it’s intended target, the rest hit 9 innocent bystanders.
    Cops are more dangerous than the criminals!
    In the initial shooting, an unarmed man was shot at point blank range multiple times. The responding officers faced a much tougher challenge. It appears their hit ratios were much better than you have indicated:
    NYPD: Empire State victims hit by police gunfire - Yahoo! News
    "Police officials have said the officers appeared to have no choice but to shoot Johnson, whose body had 10 bullet wounds in the chest, arms and legs."
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  9. #39
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Right now, looking like the shooter only shot 1 (one) person... the rest were a result of the NYC police dept. So, who was a larger danger to the citizens of NYC ? ? ?
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
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  10. #40
    Member Array Ionracas's Avatar
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    I learned just how crappy my trigger control, grip amd stance are, today at the range. I was shooting paper at five feet and hitting low and left about six inches from where I aimed. Im still learning.

    My point is that I can understand (to an extent) how it went down the way it did. If I can miss that much under controled safe conditions then this situation happening as fast as it did makes sense to me. Not saying the collateral damage is excusable though.

    Anyways its more than half way through the year 2012, what is with the poor video quality? I mean are they hunting Bigfoot?

    Off subject, when the BG hit the ground I swear he looks like Pee Wee Herman or maybe Mr. Bean
    "The thing about quotes on the internet is that you can not confirm their validity."
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  11. #41
    Senior Member Array RubenZ's Avatar
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    I think the LE screwed up the element of surprise. They didn't have to move around so much and the shooter wasn't moving. Just poor skills all around.
    Glock 20sf, Sig P938

  12. #42
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    More info + my experince

    Couple news sources, Police Officials: Officers aware of environment before they shot, videos show citizens were mostly close to building not curb where killer was, officers had clear lines of fire. One man wounded in arm by police intermingled in shooting when killer backed into him, was released from hospital today.
    One officer shot 7 rounds, one 9, hits were 50%. If nationally misses by cops are 80% then all cops do horrible and these were only really, really bad or the other conclusion could be that's as good as it gets with handguns or with them and police training. Should there be more training?: I don't know, few cops are ever in shootings yet when you hear of one you think yes. No idea.
    Civilians likely much worse but they aren't in offensive mode and not many SD shootings with nearby crowds. No other groups have police jobs, no comparisons available.

    -More awareness in NYC of shootings with police. Though tops in low crime of large cities there are 8 million there + another 4 to 6 million tourists and commuters daily swelling population, most in mid-town, so you hear of more + news capital + density of people.

    My experience watching NYPD is fine, seen them guard a number of Presidents and scores of world gov high officials yearly, including opening of the UN when it looks like all cops on earth are east of 5th ave where world leaders stay + UN is.

    I've seen them surround an entire block in minutes with helicopters and Command trailers to boot. A friend in a Times Sq hotel in code Orange times with a bomb scare saw lots of odd men putting badges on and run in first within seconds: these being a healthy percentage of the Times Sq Street "Vendors". Other friends on Hudson River bank with plane landing on the water were amazed how the scores of emergency workers set up a veritable field hospital in no time flat and organized smooth evacuation to hospitals.

    I know NYPD rivals US Gov in AntiTerrorism.

    I'm aware of anti-NYC feel here and among shooters, believe criticism in this situation flavored by that. I wish all police, including Michigan shooting of crazy, homeless man 30 times were different and accuracy were better, but police shoot as individuals, no way to watch each other and count shots and it happens in a second, gotta be looking at the gun and man about to kill them. And point about accuracy is above.

    Certainly unideal but so are guys with 45s shooting people in the head in the middle of ten-thousand people.


    Soon as I've been in that situation with a badge instead of 400 miles away in shorts reading a book at the time - no badge in sight- - I'll include my critical notes of the officers' performance.
    Last edited by detective; August 26th, 2012 at 09:26 AM.

  13. #43
    Senior Member Array RightyLefty's Avatar
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    My first observation is the officer closest to the shooter looked like he didn't have is weapon drawn as he was approaching a guy who he knows just murdered someone with gun, or at least I assume he knew. I would have had my gun already drawn and at least at my side and be covert as not to cause a stir with the public and give the bad guy a heads up. But yet he was able to get both hands while he was shooting. The second observation is the officer further away looks like had his gun already drawn but never used both hands while shooting. He did keep moving while he was shooting though since he wasn't behind cover. Each officer did some good and bad things. Lots good video here for future training though.

  14. #44
    Senior Member Array RightyLefty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoleShtr View Post
    My first observation is the officer closest to the shooter looked like he didn't have is weapon drawn as he was approaching a guy who he knows just murdered someone with gun, or at least I assume he knew. I would have had my gun already drawn and at least at my side and be covert as not to cause a stir with the public and give the bad guy a heads up. But yet he was able to get both hands while he was shooting. The second observation is the officer further away looks like had his gun already drawn but never used both hands while shooting. He did keep moving while he was shooting though since he wasn't behind cover. Each officer did some good and bad things. Lots good video here for future training though.
    I have to quote myself and revise my own post. I just looked at it again. Thinking most people are right handed, i didn't realize at first that the officer closet to the shooter is left-handed and did have his gun drawn. But now I think it is even worse than before. He had his gun drawn but yet the bad guy was able to turn around, point his weapon and it was probably two seconds later the officer raises his weapon and starts shooting back. How do you let a guy who you are following from behind get that much of a drop on you? This is worse than I thought.

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