Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers.

This is a discussion on Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers. within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by AZJD1968 I would like to point out something here ,and some of this could be speculation but I will do it anyway. ...

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 61
Like Tree16Likes

Thread: Police: All Empire State shooting victims were wounded by officers.

  1. #16
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,030
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJD1968 View Post
    I would like to point out something here ,and some of this could be speculation but I will do it anyway.
    There were 16 shots by 2 officers and I think that it is fair to say (speculation on my part) that there were a FEW misses. The range seems to me like it was 20 feet + or - a few.
    My point is that this was a very high stress situation and the trained officers still required 16 shots to stop the gunnman. This goes to show that because of the effects of stress and adrenaline on the body shot placement can't always be relied on in the heat of the moment.

    BTW... I carry and train with a Laser, maybe that would have helped the officers not shoot 9 other people.
    According to reports, the bad guy was hit by ten bullets. Perhaps, instead of a laser, the effectiveness of which in broad daylight would likely have been significantly less than conventional sights, the City of New York will stop making its officers carry pistols with 12-pound trigger pulls.
    Brad426 and Badey like this.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    3,669
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    According to reports, the bad guy was hit by ten bullets. Perhaps, instead of a laser, the effectiveness of which in broad daylight would likely have been significantly less than conventional sights, the City of New York will stop making its officers carry pistols with 12-pound trigger pulls.
    Crazy talk.
    I have a very strict gun control policy: if there's a gun around, I want to be in control of it.
    Clint Eastwood

  4. #18
    Distinguished Member Array AZJD1968's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Wichita Falls Tx.
    Posts
    1,410
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    According to reports, the bad guy was hit by ten bullets. Perhaps, instead of a laser, the effectiveness of which in broad daylight would likely have been significantly less than conventional sights, the City of New York will stop making its officers carry pistols with 12-pound trigger pulls.
    Actually, I believe that my laser comment shifted the focus of the subject of my post from "Shot Placement" to lasers.

    OK. 10 shots were hits and 6 misses. My point is that because of shot placement (or lack there of) there were 6 rounds out of 16 that were unaccounted for. Again, my point is that shot placement can't be relied upon in a high stress situation.

    PS. I just went outside, (its 10:15 AM and sunny) I can see my lasers dot at 25 feet or so.
    Stop whining and go make a difference!
    If you think that I may be talking to you, then I am.

  5. #19
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,030
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJD1968 View Post
    Actually, I believe that my laser comment shifted the focus on the subject of my post from "Shot Placement" to lasers.

    OK. 10 shots were hits and 6 misses. My point is that because of shot placement (or lack there of) there were 6 rounds out of 16 that were unaccounted for. Again, my point is that shot placement can't be relied upon in a high stress situation.

    PS. I just went outside, (its 10:15 AM and sunny) I can see my lasers dot at 25 feet or so.
    My point was that a 12-pound trigger pull affects rapid fire shot placement much more than the presence of a laser in broad daylight from a conventional shooting position.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  6. #20
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    TX/NH
    Posts
    5,787
    May I pose a question for those that have lasers. (I feel lasers have there place, but not all the time). Let us say 6 folks (LEO's or CC'ers) had lasers. 3 Had the dot on the BG and 3 did not. How do you know that your laser is on target? It is possible beleive it or not for those that have never been in a high stress situation to not not make correct decisions and they can still suffer from adrenaline and be off the target. Just saying.

  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array AZJD1968's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Wichita Falls Tx.
    Posts
    1,410
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    My point was that a 12-pound trigger pull affects rapid fire shot placement much more than the presence of a laser in broad daylight from a conventional shooting position.
    I also agree that a 12lb trigger pull would have a negative effect on "shot placement". (yet they train with this weapon) I don't see how a laser would. Useing the laser or the sights.... that would be their choice. I don't see how having that tool at their disposal would not help.

    YMMV
    Stop whining and go make a difference!
    If you think that I may be talking to you, then I am.

  8. #22
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,030
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    May I pose a question for those that have lasers. (I feel lasers have there place, but not all the time). Let us say 6 folks (LEO's or CC'ers) had lasers. 3 Had the dot on the BG and 3 did not. How do you know that your laser is on target? It is possible beleive it or not for those that have never been in a high stress situation to not not make correct decisions and they can still suffer from adrenaline and be off the target. Just saying.
    One of my edc's is laser-equipped, the other one used to be. There are only two situations I would switch it on--if I had to acquire a target quickly without being able to get eyes behind the sights, or if I had to make an extremely precise shot in fairly close-range conditions.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  9. #23
    Distinguished Member Array AZJD1968's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Wichita Falls Tx.
    Posts
    1,410
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    May I pose a question for those that have lasers. (I feel lasers have there place, but not all the time). Let us say 6 folks (LEO's or CC'ers) had lasers. 3 Had the dot on the BG and 3 did not. How do you know that your laser is on target? It is possible beleive it or not for those that have never been in a high stress situation to not not make correct decisions and they can still suffer from adrenaline and be off the target. Just saying.
    You have to sight in a laser too... its not foolproof..... just another tool to maybe help innocent people from getting shot. I check mine everyday to make sure the dot is still in the correct position.

    There will always be the possibility of human error no matter how good your tools are.

    As for the bolded part: That would be the point that you use your iron sights, or not shoot.
    Last edited by AZJD1968; August 26th, 2012 at 11:53 AM. Reason: more info.
    Stop whining and go make a difference!
    If you think that I may be talking to you, then I am.

  10. #24
    Distinguished Member Array AZJD1968's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Wichita Falls Tx.
    Posts
    1,410
    This discussion supports my original opinion that shot placement can not always be relied upon.
    Stop whining and go make a difference!
    If you think that I may be talking to you, then I am.

  11. #25
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,030
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJD1968 View Post
    This discussion supports my original opinion that shot placement can not always be relied upon.
    OK, so what do you propose we rely upon?
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array AZJD1968's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Wichita Falls Tx.
    Posts
    1,410
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    OK, so what do you propose we rely upon?
    Again, my point is not what we can rely on, but the fact that we can not rely on shot placement when it comes to a SD situation. There is no magic tool to ensure shot placement, only ones that may help.
    Stop whining and go make a difference!
    If you think that I may be talking to you, then I am.

  13. #27
    VIP Member
    Array Mike1956's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Marion County, Ohio
    Posts
    10,030
    Quote Originally Posted by AZJD1968 View Post
    Again, my point is not what we can rely on, but the fact that we can not rely on shot placement when it comes to a SD situation. There is no magic tool to ensure shot placement, only ones that may help.
    I will stick with practice, training and reliable equipment as my magical tools.
    AZJD1968 likes this.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
    Tuco

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Texas
    Posts
    4,941
    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    May I pose a question for those that have lasers. (I feel lasers have there place, but not all the time). Let us say 6 folks (LEO's or CC'ers) had lasers. 3 Had the dot on the BG and 3 did not. How do you know that your laser is on target? It is possible beleive it or not for those that have never been in a high stress situation to not not make correct decisions and they can still suffer from adrenaline and be off the target. Just saying.
    Generally speaking the laser dot that is sitting on top of my front sight is mine. If I want to verify that I can drop my point of aim a couple of inches and see if that red spot moves with it. If it doesn't we have a problem.
    AZJD1968 and wdbailey like this.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    15,166
    My point is that this was a very high stress situation and the trained officers still required 16 shots to stop the gunnman
    Trained Officers?Seriously LOL I'd like to see how many times a year they actually qualify and if they ever fire their guns other than qualifications,I train weekly and there is no doubt in my mind that all 9 rounds from my 1911 45 would hit the target at 8 feet.If you watch the video one LEO is running away while shooting one handed while his partner is in a traditional combat stance and engaging the BG,I would bet money on who's rounds missed their target.
    The BS about the Cops carrying 9mm because in cases like this the collateral damage wouldn't be as bad as if they were carrying a larger caliber is the NYPD trying to candy coat the fact that a lack of training caused numerous people to be shot
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

  16. #30
    Member Array kaboomkaboom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    186
    Quote Originally Posted by ericb327 View Post
    When someone points a gun, the time for verbal commands has come and gone!
    As I said in my original post, I do not see in the video where the bad guy ever "pointed" the gun at the officers...it was, I believe pointed at the ground. Yes, I know how fast it could have been brought into play...Besides, verbal commands should always be given and I didn't (maybe couldn't) see that that was done at all in the video.

    I did not say they should have given verbal WARNING...much different then verbal COMMANDS...I am of the school of thought, that verbal commands should be given always, until a "gun Battle" actually ensues, and even then, in some cases, should continue to be given...At the beginning of nearly every law enforcement force continuum are verbal commands, considered to be the first method of gaining subject compliance...

    Verbal commands are so basic they can be easily overlooked or dismissed as unimportant.However, the opposite is true. Verbal commands very often set the tone for the ultimate outcome of police encounters for street officers and even SWAT. Verbal commands have been an integral component of law enforcement from the earliest days of policing,for a good reason. IMHO, they should even be used by citizens before and certainly once one goes to condition red...

    Many will disagree...even different police departments have their different take on the matter.

    Eric, I'll leave you with a quote..."For to win one hundred victories in one hundred battles is not the acme of skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the acme of skill. (Sun Tzu) The Art of War"

Page 2 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

accuracy and training of two police officers at empire state building

,

all nine people injured in friday's shooting in front of the empire state building were wounded by police gunfire,

,

new york shooting defensive carry

,

police encounters with victims gone wrong

,

police shooting gone bad officer shot whicita falls

,

police: all empire state shooting victims were wounded by officers forums

Click on a term to search for related topics.