UGLY:Bicyclist-shot-after-colliding-with-pickup-truck - Page 3

UGLY:Bicyclist-shot-after-colliding-with-pickup-truck

This is a discussion on UGLY:Bicyclist-shot-after-colliding-with-pickup-truck within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by WHEC724 You're kidding, right? Not at all. Is it not illegal to willfully leave the scene of an accident in South Carolina?...

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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    You're kidding, right?

    Not at all. Is it not illegal to willfully leave the scene of an accident in South Carolina?
    The hardest thing to explain is the glaringly evident which everybody had decided not to see.
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  2. #32
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    "Police are trying to figure out, who he is" Oh' oh' I know, I know.... Sounds like he's a friggin idiot that caused an accident and then lost his friggin mind and started pounding on the wrong guy and paid for it with his life. Good shoot IMO, and I hope the driver of the truck suffers no legal or mental issues from it.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  3. #33
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by suntzu
    So you are saying it is perfectly acceptable for 80 year old lady to be riding in the middle of a road that is marked 55 mph?
    I'm from a small rural area. The last time I had to go to a big city I was on the expressway doing 20 mph over the speed limits and being honked at, given the finger and then passed by blue haired old ladies on their way to the Mall or whatever.

    Michael
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  4. #34
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skew12 View Post
    Most bicycle riders don't follow the law of the road.
    I agree. See that kinda crap all the time in town.. Sometime you really have to pack your patients when downtown.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  5. #35
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Not at all. Is it not illegal to willfully leave the scene of an accident in South Carolina?
    Acquaintance of mine hit a motorcyle a couple of years ago....his fault. He was getting out of his vehicle and the rest of the folks in the cyclists group (biker week) went beserk. A guy started kicking his tires. I was behind him following him to get some furniture, but I digress. He took off and called the cops on his phone. I personally think he overreacted but I could see why he was scared.
    He did not try to leave the accident to get out of responsibility.
    He was not charged with leaving an accident.

    BTW: Nobody was hurt including the Harley and the bikers apologized for getting upset.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I'm from a small rural area. The last time I had to go to a big city I was on the expressway doing 20 mph over the speed limits and being honked at, given the finger and then passed by blue haired old ladies on their way to the Mall or whatever.

    Michael
    LOL, I meant on a bike....

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    You're kidding, right?

    "Yah, I didn't want to leave the scene of an accident, so I shot him".

    In Mi. and many other states it is against the law to leave the scene of an accident.
    A friend of mine was driving alone in Ohio, rte 20 and 280(just S. of the turnpike and spun out on a patch of ice, hit a concrete barrier.
    Got out inspected the damage to his car, was driveable, he began to drive away and a police car pulls him over and says "I saw the whole thing, and you were leaving the scene of an accident".
    The police don't mess around anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Driving away makes one guilty of leaving the scene of an accident. Reaching inside a vehicle to put hands on someone is a particularly bad plan in Castle Doctrine states.

    Here is another dated article"prior" to the OP's posted link,
    http://www.wxyz.com/dpp/news/region/...ent-speaks-out

    Could he have pulled up 10-25 feet? Attacker probably would have pursued and began his assault again?
    I wasn't there, but I believe he will walk due to Mi. law and the way it reads.


    Heres the Mi. law


    MCL 600.2922b, MCL 600.2922c, &
    MCL 777.21c
    The Self-Defense Act
    Effective October 1, 2006
    Public Acts 309 – 314 of 2006 comprise the “Self-Defense Act.” The Act affects criminal and civil liability for those who use force to defend themselves or others. Prior to this Act, the law of self-defense was gleaned primarily from the common law (judge-made law).
    General Provisions of the Act
    A person may use deadly force with no duty to retreat if (PA 309):
    1. They are not engaged in a crime
    2. They are in a place they have a legal right to be
    3. They honestly and reasonably believe deadly force is necessary
    4. The deadly force is used to prevent imminent death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault of the person or another

    A person may use force other than deadly force if (PA 309):
    1. They are not engaged in a crime
    2. They are in a place they have a legal right to be
    3. They honestly and reasonably believe force is necessary
    4. The force is used to prevent imminent unlawful force against the person or another

    This update is provided for informational purposes only. Officers should contact their local prosecutor for an interpretation before applying the information contained in this update. MSP Legal Update, September 2006 Page 2 of 4
    Self-Defense Act, continued
    Honest and Reasonable Belief
    The Act (PA 311) creates a rebuttable presumption that a person using force has an honest and reasonable belief that imminent death, great bodily harm, or sexual assault will occur if the person using force honestly and reasonably believes the person against whom force is used is any of the following:
    1. In the process of breaking and entering a dwelling or business
    2. In the process of committing a home invasion
    3. Has committed a breaking and entering or home invasion and is still present in the dwelling or business
    4. Is attempting to unlawfully remove a person from a dwelling, business, or vehicle against his or her will

    The presumption created by the Act does not apply in the following circumstances:
    1. The person against whom force was used has a legal right to be in the dwelling, business, or vehicle
    2. The person being removed from a dwelling, business, or vehicle is a child in the lawful custody of the person removing the child
    3. The person using force is engaged in a crime or using the business, dwelling, or vehicle to further a crime
    4. The person against whom force is used is a police officer attempting to enter a dwelling, business, or vehicle in the performance of his or her duties
    5. The person against whom force was used has a domestic relationship with the person using force and the person using force has a history of domestic violence as the aggressor

    Effect on the Common Law
    In circumstances not addressed in the Act, the common law of self-defense still applies with one exception: There is no longer a duty to retreat when a person is “in his or her own dwelling or within the curtilage of that dwelling.” This exception applies even in cases where the rest of the Act doesn’t apply (PA 313).
    Civil Liability
    A person who uses force in accordance with the Act is immune from civil liability for damages caused by the use of such force (PA 314). Additionally, courts must award attorney fees and costs to an individual who has been sued for using force and the court finds that the force was in accordance with the Act (PA 312).
    Criminal Liability
    Under the Act (PA 310), no crime has been committed when a person uses force as authorized. If a prosecutor believes that the force is not justified, he or she must provide evidence that the force used was not in accordance with the Act. Such evidence must be presented at the time of warrant issuance, preliminary examination, and trial.
    Effect on Law Enforcement
    The overall effect of the Act on police practice is minimal. Officers should still process suspected crime scenes as in the past. However, because of the duty imposed upon prosecutors by PA 310, officers should immediately consult with their prosecutor when investigating a case where self-defense has been claimed by the suspect or where the circumstances indicate that such a defense might be used at trial.
    In the absence of guidance from a prosecutor, officers should attempt to gather circumstantial or direct evidence that might show that use of force was unjustified, i.e., the circumstances listed in PA 309 did not exist.
    Public Act 309 of 2006 Public Act 310 of 2006
    Public Act 311 of 2006 Public Act 312 of 2006
    Public Act 313 of 2006 Public Act 314 of 2006

    This is a prime example of why having a "less than lethal" means of defending against such an attack is a good idea.
    IANAL, BUT
    Then, if the beating persists then you really have a good justification for lethal force.
    Last edited by oneshot; August 30th, 2012 at 07:40 PM.
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    For the novice reading this thread, driving away is a far better option if possible.
    Totally agree with this....Better to pull up the road a bit and call the police. I'm sure the officer would understand and even agree with the measure of descalation... Even if he didn't, I'd leave it up to the judge to make the call during the court case.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  9. #39
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    Cyclist, cop, gun lover here. Take the bicycle out of the equation. Still a good shoot? Slamming the accelerator and creating distance from your aggressor is a good option and maybe the most PC option. So the other guy gets hurt? You were defending yourself from being assaulted.

    Leaving the scene? Seriously? You have a traffic accident, Vehicle #2(at fault) driver assaults you at the crash scene. Please leave and call 911. Report it! All of it. If some copper tries to charge you with leaving the scene, no DA in the land will pursue those charges if you escape, report then return to the scene when it is safe.

    I carry a Kershaw spring assist on long road bike rides. You never know. What if the aggressor had a knife available?

    The level of aggression shown was unusual and shocking. All things that will help to justify the shoot.

    I once heard about a one vehicle rollover crash. The two guys in the truck were severely intoxicated. When other good samaritan motorists stopped to assist the crashed vehicle occupants, one of the injured guys pulled out a glock .40 and told the witnesses to leave. He then ran up into the woods and hid out for about 12 hours. Shitty day at work.

    You never know who you might be sharing the road with.
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  10. #40
    VIP Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Based on the law here in MI, It appears to be a good shoot. This all depends on the driver not flapping his gums
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

    Never be ashamed of a scar. It simply means, that you were stronger than whatever tried to hurt you......

  11. #41
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    On both subjects running in the thread:

    As far as the guy being a cyclist (I am one myself): He was on a bike, but I used to work EMS in that city and know those roads/that intersection - I don't know a sport cyclist in his right mind that would ride there. Telegraph in an 8 lane superhighway and Northline has four very busy lanes of it's own and neither has a shoulder to speak of. Most people riding there have somewhere to go (and in that area, it's incredibly common the only mode of transportation other than a bus or a buddy because license is lost to DUI, or just too low an income to afford a car). Jumping to conclusion? Yes, but I believe the "cyclist" was likely a local dude biking to the liquor store. Not that it matters one bit, but since we're debating about cyclists obeying laws...I highly doubt this was a "cyclist" like we are mostly talking about. In any case, to heck with the laws - sometimes in the big city riding on the road is suicide. This place would pretty much be.

    On subject number 2: I understand that it may seem like driving away is the more PC/humane/righteous thing to do but don't forget that this guy just had a collision with a cyclist and may have already been no thinking as clearly as you and I. Perhaps he had put his truck in park and even turned it off. Are you sure you would take the time to start the vehicle, put it in gear and drive away? In that area, it'd be pretty common for the truck to be a beater that might take a while to crank over or might not do start reliably. As the great philosopher Mike Tyson said "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face."

    I'll give the non-aggressor the benefit of the doubt.
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  12. #42
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    News report showed a Ford Ranger in good shape as the truck. Bike was inexpensive mountain bike. Worst part of this is the police chief said on camera that he doesn't thing deadly force was necessary in this case. That is why the driver in in jail. I would hope the DA springs him after reviewing the reports

  13. #43
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    The article posted(#37) by me said the cyclist/agressor was a homeless dude.
    They are having a hard time locating his next of kin, and were only able to ID him from his prints from being in prison.
    If you want to make God laugh, tell him your plans.

    Washington didn't use his freedom of speech to defeat the British, He shot them!

    Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy." -- Ernest Benn

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    Not at all. Is it not illegal to willfully leave the scene of an accident in South Carolina?
    I'm not going to crack open one of my old law books, but there is sufficient legal precedence in support of breaking a law in order to preserve a life.

    Plus, it's just one of those common sense things.
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  15. #45
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    Don't need to leave the scene...just roll up your window and lock the door and call 911.

    Instead some of you think this is OK to shoot the guy when you had other options.

    A good clean shoot? Really?
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

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