Local: 9 year olds fighting... one has a gun?

This is a discussion on Local: 9 year olds fighting... one has a gun? within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Being a bad parent does not shift the blame or responsibilities onto those outside influences the parent was supposed to protect their child against. Originally ...

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Thread: Local: 9 year olds fighting... one has a gun?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Being a bad parent does not shift the blame or responsibilities onto those outside influences the parent was supposed to protect their child against.
    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    how you plan on doing that, lock them up in a room with no outside infuances?


    :SNIP:
    I would rather lock them up in a room with a good parent that is willing to teach them how to deal with those outside influences. To only go after the movies, TV or other possible influences also would affect the majority of citizens who act responsibly after being around those same things. How much of your freedom or choices if you prefer are you willing to give up or restrict because a small percentage react badly after being exposed to them?

    Michael

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  3. #17
    Member Array slidewayz240's Avatar
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    I fondly remember growing up and playing grand theft auto 3 through 5... my parents would pre order it for me and i paid for it with my paper route money... i played this and socom religiously... I think I grew up just fine. In fact i am making more money than my parents, happily married, have 2 cars and a house with a little dog. I think it boils down to poor parenting... not video games or movies...

  4. #18
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    This is not a discussion of "IF a 9 year old knows it the gun is real or not but does he totally understand that if he pulls the trigger he will kill someone. The question is does he/she understands the seriousness of using a gun.

    people here on DC people are more prone to take their kids shooting and teaching safety rules but what about the mother that works a 14 hour day trying to feed the kids after her husband goes for a pack of smokes and never comes home. Maybe she is not into guns and has no experience and this is her kid; is she a bad parent?

  5. #19
    Senior Member Array GeorgiaDawg's Avatar
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    A single mom with latch-key kid in the house should not have a firearm accessible to the child.
    "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

    “The purpose of the law is not to prevent a future offense, but to punish the one actually committed” - Ayn Rand

  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array GunGeezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Hard to know the specific age of the assailant, whether it's real.

    Tough situation. Haven't been in this one, myself, but I'm betting I'd try a bit of plain-language Q&A with the kid. Does he/she realize shooting someone can kill, can change your life forever, can get you put in prison for a lifetime, get label your family as "that bunch of murderers" for a lifetime?, etc. Whereas the average ~20yr old wouldn't be fazed by such pleas to sanity, a kid might well. I'd make darned sure to find out the identity of the little bugger's parents, to try to ensure such corrections as could be made were implemented.

    But if there was every indication via demeanor, intent and tool that it was all real and imminent, the lawfully it is what it is: a deadly force situation that legally justifies protection of innocent life.




    I think a variety of factors have influence over a person's ability to learn from a situation. The realism of the training is one. The presence or lack of guidance/mentoring about the training is another. As are the elements of the training that allows for repeating the tests/lessons, getting incentives to alter behavior in the simulation, and so on.

    But I think it's important to distinguish between the changing nature of the "play/simulation" environment that people have at there disposal, today. Regarding youths, it used to be that grabbing a toy gun/bow and playing with friends was the primary role-play variant, with reading and storytelling being the other common media. Then, along came radio, movies, television, but still each of these were others doing to others.

    The distinction with video games is the "perfect storm" of factors such highly real simulation can create: the person is the actor in the driver's seat, unlike each other medium; there's a fair realism with today's decent graphics and computer power/controls; there's the computer's ability to present the "message" over and over again; there's the much-loved incentive of improved score based on the murder/mayhem created; and there aren't consequences. The person gets to "see what it's like" directly, in the position of the shooter/whatever, using the tools, causing the blood/gore/death, getting incentive to do it, having the ability to do it over and over again, ...

    Irrespective of who's at the controls (kids or others), such simulation training tools have influencing of the participants occurring that we've not seen before.

    As an example, consider how effectively simulators are used in other role-playing scenarios where it's too costly to do test-runs: LEO/military mission training; flight simulation training; space training. Consider the push toward force-on-force defensive training, simulating actual engagements more realistically. Such training makes the actual events far more likely to succeed, when done effectively. Point being, the influence of such training is real.

    Such "simulator" training effects in a video simulated environment, particularly unguided/unsupervised, is also very real. Particularly with young'uns. And, of course, particularly whenever such simulated training (of any kind, any medium) is done without guidance and informed evaluation/reflection.

    NOTE: I am not blaming any single medium or factor. I'm simply suggesting the current tools allow a degree of simulation and scenarios, a degree of reality, putting the actor in the driver's seat, and risk of lack of guidance/mentoring in combination that is highly influential. That combination is something we've not seen before. I fear we haven't given nearly the due consideration to how much of an impact such factors have, particularly in combination.
    This is the most concise, well thought out and well written response I have seen in quit a while. Thanks for your enlightening and thought provoking insight.

  7. #21
    Member Array Shiphted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    You are correct BUT the influences of other things around kids make a difference. Being a good parent is great but what happens when a parent is no so good and dumps the kid in front of the TV or allows them to play graphic video games? This is what you get; instead of a kid exploring his own worth’s and ability’s videos and movies teach that you can get revenge from a gun.

    You can't compare yourself to kids of today. TV was nowhere near as violent 40 years ago as it is today. If a kid grows up in a war torn country then violence is the normal just as a kid that grows up in the deep city is way different then a kid that grows up in Nebraska in the Corn Belt.
    You might be Right or you might be wrong. The problem is if you arnt capable of raising kids, teaching your kids responsibilities, informing them about life, and spending time with your kids in a regular basis then expect the worst hope for the best.

    I was raised in a terrible area of the US. East side Chicago and Gary Indiana. My brothers where in Gangs. I seen alot of stupid **** growing up. I had to learn alot on my own. But instead of learning right from wrong from my parents I learned how to not be stupid by watching others be stupid.

    Parents these days suck and don't give a ****. They think popping a kid out and not doing anything for them is being a parent but there sadly mistaken.


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  8. #22
    Member Array Shiphted's Avatar
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    8 years old, 18 years old, 80 years old, they all can pull the trigger.


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  9. #23
    Ex Member Array wolverine181's Avatar
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    I've killed thousands upon thousands of people with reckless abandon. I've set some on fire, killed people in front of their family members, and have thrown them off of cliffs for pure enjoyment. I've worked with the Navy SEALS, Force Recon, Army Rangers, Special Forces, SAS, Delta Force, Third Echelon, the NSA, CIA, FBI, and Stormtroopers. Hell, I've killed a couple hundred people today alone.

    ... in video games. Gonna be honest, I've never picked up a gun in real life and been any less cautious after playing a video game. I know friends like me that play games like grand theft auto and go on killing sprees every day, yet they just straight up don't like guns. parenting + sound mind = good things most of the time. I see video games more as a release than something that makes me actually want to go out and do something stupid.

  10. #24
    Member Array Shiphted's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolverine181 View Post
    I've killed thousands upon thousands of people with reckless abandon. I've set some on fire, killed people in front of their family members, and have thrown them off of cliffs for pure enjoyment. I've worked with the Navy SEALS, Force Recon, Army Rangers, Special Forces, SAS, Delta Force, Third Echelon, the NSA, CIA, FBI, and Stormtroopers. Hell, I've killed a couple hundred people today alone.

    ... in video games. Gonna be honest, I've never picked up a gun in real life and been any less cautious after playing a video game. I know friends like me that play games like grand theft auto and go on killing sprees every day, yet they just straight up don't like guns. parenting + sound mind = good things most of the time. I see video games more as a release than something that makes me actually want to go out and do something stupid.
    Couldn't agree more. Well said.


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  11. #25
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shiphted View Post
    You might be Right or you might be wrong. The problem is if you arnt capable of raising kids, teaching your kids responsibilities, informing them about life, and spending time with your kids in a regular basis then expect the worst hope for the best.

    I was raised in a terrible area of the US. East side Chicago and Gary Indiana. My brothers where in Gangs. I seen alot of stupid **** growing up. I had to learn alot on my own. But instead of learning right from wrong from my parents I learned how to not be stupid by watching others be stupid.

    Parents these days suck and don't give a ****. They think popping a kid out and not doing anything for them is being a parent but there sadly mistaken.


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    For starters you have to want to be a parent, just because someone can give birth does not make them a parent. To be a parent is to care enough about your offspring to want and give them the best of everything. Some people are not parents because they care for themselves more than their children.

    As far as teaching the children right from wrong that comes from a collective of different people hence the old saying "it takes a village to raise a child". the parent is an anchor point but the surroundings are just as much a teacher as the parents and when kids are introduced to games that teach that you can get pleasure from killing and maiming other there are going to be a few out of a group that are going to take it to the next level
    Last edited by barstoolguru; September 9th, 2012 at 11:36 AM. Reason: typo

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array JoJoGunn's Avatar
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    I think that it has a lot to do with the SKILLS to be a parent or maybe the lack thereof. Down the hallway from my office in the Courthouse is the Family Law Master and the Parenting School. I have often made the comment that some people need a license to breed because; why should they be taught how to be parents after they have already brought a life into the world? It seems backwards.

    In my youthful days, I had loads of toy guns but we were taught that they were toys and the real thing was not to be treated that way. We knew how to separate the real from the fantasy, because we had intelligent parents who took an active interest in how we developed and did not rely on "electronic babysitters" to do the job they should be doing. Perhaps the parents recieved poor instruction when they were young.

    Not all parents are bad, however. There are some who despite the instruction from parents will turn out crappy. It's just the societal pressures on kids these days to just do anything they feel is fine and that can undermine the ability to teach and the ability to learn right from wrong. It seems to be the direction a lot of youth are determined to go, into the area of recklessness with wild abandon.

    Can't just blame it on electronics, but to a certain degree, they have a place in the end result of bad behaviour. I think it is a multi faceted problem that begins at home with the lack of good instruction.
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  13. #27
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    For starters you have to want to be a parent, just because someone can give birth does not make them a parent. To be a parent is to care enough about your offspring to want and give them the best of everything. Some people are not parents because they care for themselves more than their children.

    As far as teaching the children right from wrong that comes from a collective of different people hence the old saying "it takes a village to raise a child". the parent is an anchor point but the surroundings are just as much a teacher as the parents and when kids are introduced to games that teach that you can get pleasure from killing and maiming other there are going to be a few out of a group that are going to take it to the next level
    This for me is the whole issue. How many of your freedoms will the rest of us have to give up in our effort to prevent these few from taking it to the next level. Do we accept that some bad things can happen and quickly punish those who take things to that next level? Or, do we demand that the ninety nine percent of the population that will not abuse those freedoms give them up so that the one percent who might abuse them will not have them.
    In effect do we punish the whole population for the acts of a few?

    Michael

  14. #28
    Ex Member Array barstoolguru's Avatar
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    In my youthful days, I had loads of toy guns but we were taught that they were toys and the real thing was not to be treated that way. We knew how to separate the real from the fantasy, because we had intelligent parents who took an active interest in how we developed and did not rely on "electronic babysitters" to do the job they should be doing. Perhaps the parents recieved poor instruction when they were young.
    As I said we are not talking about does he know the difference between a real gun and a fake one? At 9 YO he has an idea or he would have brought a fake one instead



    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    This for me is the whole issue. How many of your freedoms will the rest of us have to give up in our effort to prevent these few from taking it to the next level. Do we accept that some bad things can happen and quickly punish those who take things to that next level? Or, do we demand that the ninety nine percent of the population that will not abuse those freedoms give them up so that the one percent who might abuse them will not have them.
    In effect do we punish the whole population for the acts of a few?

    Michael
    What is good for one is not good for another and how do you define the difference? This is an age old question that can't be answered without stepping on someone else’s toes. It seems that your method doesn't seem to work either, letting society sort them out. NO we as a population have a responsibly to safeguard our youth and not influence them with games of hate and revenge.

    I loved the comment one of the posters made “I have killed and mutilated tens of thousands of people" and here he is on a web site that explores guns and violence. To an observer that might send up a red flag as being a unstable.

    Maybe I am a little old fashion but just because someone wants it doesn’t mean they can have it. We as people live with limitations all the time. So far you offer no proof that kids playing violent video games and movies don’t influence them! I say look at Aurora, Co shooting and see what influence a batman movie had there!!

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    I loved the comment one of the posters made “I have killed and mutilated tens of thousands of people" and here he is on a web site that explores guns and violence. To an observer that might send up a red flag as being a unstable.
    Of course, the referenced quote's context was explanation of experience with video gaming and how none of it sent him off some edge. Though, some unstable readers (observers) might well narrowly conclude "instability." It's that sort of world.

    But then, half of what we discuss here on DC is that sort of thing: thinking that makes a good third of the population grit their teeth in horror at the prospect of so many people having so little concern for the health and well-being of criminals.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; September 9th, 2012 at 05:10 PM. Reason: spelling, grammar, ref
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  16. #30
    Ex Member Array wolverine181's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by barstoolguru View Post
    I loved the comment one of the posters made “I have killed and mutilated tens of thousands of people" and here he is on a web site that explores guns and violence. To an observer that might send up a red flag as being a unstable.
    that would probably be somebody who doesn't understand context and was perusing this site just to find an example of somebody being "unstable". also, I see this site as exploring guns and DEFENSE.

    I'd find it extremely ******* ridiculous if somebody on this site supports the censorship or banning of videogames.... COMPLETELY ridiculous. I wonder if those people realize that their parents probably felt the same way about the media back in the day. It seems like older generations always complain about newer things like this. Eventually the kids they were complaining to grow up fine (for the most part), then they continue to do the same to the next new thing.

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