Police gun down 83-year-old woman responding to 911 call she dialed

This is a discussion on Police gun down 83-year-old woman responding to 911 call she dialed within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Knowing that she had dialed 911 and that officers were inbound she fired blindly out a window of her home trying to "scare off" what ...

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Thread: Police gun down 83-year-old woman responding to 911 call she dialed

  1. #46
    Member Array FreeFalling's Avatar
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    Knowing that she had dialed 911 and that officers were inbound she fired blindly out a window of her home trying to "scare off" what she thought was a prowler. She didn't put her glasses on or her hearing aid in first. It's amazing she didn't shoot one of the officers.

    I'm inclined to believe she had decided to take matters into her own hands and exited the house fully intending to put lead into somebody.

    It's unfortunate, and I know her family is hurting, but it sounds like the LEO's responded to the best of their ability.

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  3. #47
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    It is a bad situation for everyone involved. Even when people do everything right folks can still end up dead. Life is fairly serious and rarely forgiving. When we put deadly weapons into the equation things get less forgiving very quickly.
    Every time I walk out the door with a weapon on my belt it is with the understanding that while it may save my life in a violent encounter it may also get me shot by someone (LEO or citizen) that might mistake me for the bad guy.

    The only guarantee we have in this life is that it will end eventually. No matter what we do, the time will come. All we can do its hope to delay it a bit.
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  4. #48
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    How do you know she never fired it and had no training?

    Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

    This--

    ....Towler had never fired her gun before that night....

    Read more: Police gun down 83-year-old woman responding to 911 call she dialed - NY Daily News

  5. #49
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    Taken to task.... I think not. Your judgment of what a deadly threat is by comparison to what I would consider a deadly threat are two totally different things. If I was a LEO and in the same exact situation, I believe I could convince the little lady that I was there to help and not to shoot me, therefore I wouldn't need to shoot her either. Yeah, this is a tragic situation, but AGAIN! Know your friggin target before you put it down... By some of the statements in this thread, I can get a clear picture that some of you would shoot into a bush just because it growled at you.

    I'm not after the officers badges and what not, but I'll almost bet anything that unlike the little old lady, excuse me, hardened would be criminal, that they had the option to stay behind cover and continue to try to make contact with a obviously frightened little lady; and if they didn't know it was a little old lady, they should have, then maybe they wouldn't have killed her.... Oh' and for anyone that says maybe they didn't have cover, to that I'd say, well they sure as hell should have. You just don't go head long like a banshee into a possible life or death situation, you approach it with caution and forethought. Face it, they messed up, she messed up. BUT, she's not the one with training, end of story.
    You would talk with the old lady. I think your blinders are on. So an old lady with a gun is not a deadly threat to you. Ok. Thats fine with me, its not my funeral. I do not care about cover, how the positioning went. She came out, turned towards with weapon in hand. This is not a threat to you???? Run for office and make a difference, with a kinder more gentle police force. When you point a deadly weapon at police, they will respond with deadly force. Time and time again we see this. And time and time again people take issue with it. I understand the situation is tragic, but that doesnt change the force continuum.

  6. #50
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    No offense but there is nothing in the article that says anything about shooting at a shadow. Obviously they was enough light and they were close enough to see her with a gun.

    Was there another option? I don't know as you stated none of us were there.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  7. #51
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Harryball View Post
    You would talk with the old lady. I think your blinders are on. So an old lady with a gun is not a deadly threat to you. Ok. Thats fine with me, its not my funeral. I do not care about cover, how the positioning went. She came out, turned towards with weapon in hand. This is not a threat to you????
    Answered by the series of statements.... First off, Sure, I'd try to communicate with her, you wouldn't ?, very odd IMO. Sure she would be if under certain circumstances. Under the circumstances as related to this particular incident, NO, and you're right, it's not your funeral, so don't worry about it "K". Some of us out in the world value life just a little more than others I guess, just the way it is. Cover, we don't need no stinking cover... Your statement regarding using cover and the positioning is laughable to me. Roll up on a volatile situation and get you head blowed off if you want, that's your call, no skin off my tail. Like I stated and as others have said as well. We weren't there to truly evaluate the entire situation as it unfolded, so your last statement regarding how she confronted the officers is purely conjecture on your part just as much as mine, but on different sides of the fence, so let's just disagree on this subject and move on shall we. It's not my goal to bicker over issues beyond my control and you are obviously not bothered by the accidental death of a confused citizen during a frightening ordeal. If you're done taking me to task, I'd appreciate a lighter tone from here on out.
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    No offense but there is nothing in the article that says anything about shooting at a shadow. Obviously they was enough light and they were close enough to see her with a gun.
    Just a little tongue and cheek reference to not fully knowing the target. Made in poor taste I guess.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  9. #53
    Ex Member Array Harryball's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    Answered by the series of statements.... First off, Sure, I'd try to communicate with her, you wouldn't ?, very odd IMO. Sure she would be if under certain circumstances. Under the circumstances as related to this particular incident, NO, and you're right, it's not your funeral, so don't worry about it "K". Some of us out in the world value life just a little more than others I guess, just the way it is. Cover, we don't need no stinking cover... Your statement regarding using cover and the positioning is laughable to me. Roll up on a volatile situation and get you head blowed off if you want, that's your call, no skin off my tail. Like I stated and as others have said as well. We weren't there to truly evaluate the entire situation as it unfolded, so your last statement regarding how she confronted the officers is purely conjecture on your part just as much as mine, but on different sides of the fence, so let's just disagree on this subject and move on shall we. It's not my goal to bicker over issues beyond my control and you are obviously not bothered by the accidental death of a confused citizen during a frightening ordeal. If you're done taking me to task, I'd appreciate a lighter tone from here on out.
    My statement regarding cover was in jest. To me it was not important to the story and it still isnt. That was a pipe dream you had for the officers behavior.

    We have a lot of confused individuals in our country. We have the guy in Houston, the man in Saginaw, and now this woman. I do not have an answer to solve the problem. It appears to be bigger than you and I. What I do know, If they have weapons and are forced to deal with police, they will be dealt with. That is not my call, its just the way it is. Sorry that doesnt fit into your utopia. If you find my opinion funny that is fine as well, I really do not care.

    We do disagree on the subject that will not change. I am not going to make excuses for people that are confused. If she was that bad off, strip her of her rights. Big brother would be glad to help you in that endeavor. We can not keep putting others lives at stake for someone that may or may not be confused. That is a load of crap. Our law enforcement officers are not part of some social engineering test to see how sensitive they can be.. Anyways, good day.....

  10. #54
    Senior Member Array Chevy-SS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pittypat21 View Post
    Hardly. When an unidentified man points a gun at a police officer and ignores commands to put the weapon down, the police are justified in using deadly force to defend themselves.

    This sounds reasonable. But how do we know that's what really transpired? That seems to be the standard LEO answer to every single shooting like this. The homeowner is dead, and the LEO is well trained to know exactly what he needs to say to protect himself from any possible prosecution. We can only hope the responding officers were equipped some sort of audio/video recording devices, as many departments are finally starting to do.
    'Be careful, even in small matters' - Miyamoto Musashi

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array 40Bob's Avatar
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    I had two similar incidents happen to me as a patrolman.

    I was responding to prowlers in the wee hours. Doing so, a prudent officer uses noise and light discipline, parking several houses down and approaching silently in the dark. Two time I spotted shadowy figures armed with handguns. When challenged one even threatened to shoot me if I did light myself up with my flashlight so he could see my uniform.

    It can go bad very fast, when the police challenge you in these situations you have fractions of a second to make a decision and comply.
    My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon. Go big or stay on the porch.

  12. #56
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 40Bob View Post
    It can go bad very fast, when the police challenge you in these situations you have fractions of a second to make a decision and comply.
    Why is it "fractions of a second"? In the age of the armed citizen, it seems cutting things awfully close ... particularly when no non-cop is trained in fraction-of-second discipline when challenged by one claiming to be an officer, when the mere hint of a "false" move can provoke being gunned down. I think that's what folks are getting at, in this thread, when questioning why the resident was shot so quickly, particularly when at 83yrs of age and of ostensibly sweet disposition it's unlikely she deliberately turned and aimed with intent to harm an officer.
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  13. #57
    Member Array Jesters Dead's Avatar
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    That's tragic for all involved. But, jumping to conclusions about who is at fault without knowing all the facts isn't fair to anyone.
    gottabkiddin likes this.

  14. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Why is it "fractions of a second"? In the age of the armed citizen, it seems cutting things awfully close ... particularly when no non-cop is trained in fraction-of-second discipline when challenged by one claiming to be an officer, when the mere hint of a "false" move can provoke being gunned down. I think that's what folks are getting at, in this thread, when questioning why the resident was shot so quickly, particularly when at 83yrs of age and of ostensibly sweet disposition it's unlikely she deliberately turned and aimed with intent to harm an officer.
    Actually, there is training available to non-cops for the fractions-of-a-second responses you speak of, and many of us have been through it. If "claiming to be an officer" is drawn down on you, telling you to put the gun down, do not point it at them. Drop it, get down on the ground and let them get things sorted out. I'm a swell guy, but the guy I am pointing a gun at doesn't know that.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
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  15. #59
    Member Array JayTee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Why is it "fractions of a second"? In the age of the armed citizen, it seems cutting things awfully close ... particularly when no non-cop is trained in fraction-of-second discipline when challenged by one claiming to be an officer, when the mere hint of a "false" move can provoke being gunned down. I think that's what folks are getting at, in this thread, when questioning why the resident was shot so quickly, particularly when at 83yrs of age and of ostensibly sweet disposition it's unlikely she deliberately turned and aimed with intent to harm an officer.
    Thank you. Hopefully that registers with some of the posters on here. Especially the one implying that I'm a "cop hater". Really? Because I have a little bit of sympathy for an 83 year old woman that was shot to death in her backyard trying to get to her sister's house? Because I stated that perhaps upon seeing that little old lady with a gun (yes, even pointed at me) that I would have taken a different course of action other than shooting her??

    Like gottabkiddin said earlier, I guess some people in this world value life a little more than others. Done with this thread.

  16. #60
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    Before the adult children of this woman starts pointing fingers....they should look in the mirror first.

    They knew she had a gun, but didn't do anything to educate her on what to do with it in such a incident. They didn't tell her to lock herself in a room, and stay on the phone with 911. They should have told her how to behave with that gun.

    It is sad that this woman lost her life, but it is also sad that the Officers were put in that position.

    If you have a elderly mother (aunt, sister, niece, daughter ect.) make sure that she KNOWS what to do and NOT do. So many women think that just getting a gun is all they need, without thinking of how and when to use it. Having a gun is a Right, but the responsibility of making sure that gun is handled in the proper way is not a little thing and needs to be addressed by family members who should know.
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