"Your conceal carry gun doesn’t make me safer"

This is a discussion on "Your conceal carry gun doesn’t make me safer" within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by glockman10mm I agree, and apologize to you if I came on strong, but that's my nature, and as much as I try, ...

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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I agree, and apologize to you if I came on strong, but that's my nature, and as much as I try, I can't change who I am, although I still try.

    Having said that, I never really gave a damn about getting agreements. But I think much is hidden in written word that is misunderstood, but would be conveyed properly thru personal conversation.

    Now, I don't know how much of a difference this made in this guys outlook. However, he did convey to me that my response has given him alot to chew on. We shall see. But I suspect that there are those who have only been subjected to one side of the issue, and it may be a simple matter of giving them the other side, in a reasonable , unintimidating and calm rational way.
    And then of course, there are those that will listen to neither.
    I agree and I thank you for taking the time to write to him and offer some intelligent points for him to consider. I think that the author has a mindset that is probably quite prevalent in our society. If he is willing to reevaluate his ideas based on your points, I think that's all we can ask of anyone. I most certainly don't expect everyone to agree with my ideas but if someone is openminded enough to consider opposing views, then they are at least proving that they aren't just blindly following along.

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  3. #62
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    The author never came across as an anti to me. He came across as someone, like myself that is concerned with the state of most conceal carriers. He is right, most folks are not trained, most haven't a clue what to do in a critical situation. We have about 65000 members here, and most carry and train. We have around 8,000,000 nation wide. My question to you all is this. How many of the members here have had the training to deal with this type of threat? And how many truthfully believe (and be honest about your skill level) they could have made a difference?

    I will answer my questions to....

    1. I have had the training to deal with an active shooter.

    2. Could I make a difference. Maybe, I would try my damndest to end the threat, but not at the cost of others. There are so many variables, to say either way could be construed as foolish banter...

    That being said my skill level is up to the task, but I was not there to evaluate the situation. Again, I think the author brings up some valuable points.....
    Don"t let stupid be your skill set....

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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    No shaved heads... No mall ninjas... no camo warriors, not even Joe Sixpack... or Joe the plumber... or Sarah Palin...

    Just plain folks... Mr. And Mrs Everyman... The Gray Man... Kinda like what Oleg Volk portrays in many of his photos.

    That's what I want to see, portraying CCW holders in this country.... I want to see it on TV... I want it seen by the liberals... Nice ordinary folks sitting at dinner... Armed. Just because they know it can happen anywhere at any time...
    Hey!

    Just wait a dern minute there!

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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I agree, and apologize to you if I came on strong, but that's my nature, and as much as I try, I can't change who I am, although I still try.

    Having said that, I never really gave a damn about getting agreements. But I think much is hidden in written word that is misunderstood, but would be conveyed properly thru personal conversation.

    Now, I don't know how much of a difference this made in this guys outlook. However, he did convey to me that my response has given him alot to chew on. We shall see. But I suspect that there are those who have only been subjected to one side of the issue, and it may be a simple matter of giving them the other side, in a reasonable , unintimidating and calm rational way.
    And then of course, there are those that will listen to neither.
    The written word definitely has its limitations for me, and my brevity is generally more apparent than my subtlety. I try to temper it all with civility, but that doesn't always shine through, either. Everything we do has the potential to sway the point of view of another, and the mere fact you reached out to him directly in a calm fashion is likely a good thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad426 View Post
    I don't 100% disagree... I feel safer with my gun, but you I ain't so sure about (except maybe Tangle). Where he misses the mark (pun totally intended) is when he implies that cops are better shots than "the average citizen" because they are "trained to shoot under pressure situations". I'd be curious to see the statistics on shootings by "average citizens" (legal, no gang-banger statistics, please) compared to the police shootings.
    a well known gun club / range here .... has a yearly "shoot competition" ..... between various LEO's groups, vs club members who team up. The LEO's have never won, and they use all of their best marksmen and SWAT members. And typically, it's not even close.
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    A Response

    Gentlemen,

    I am a firm believer in standing up for what you believe and owning what you say. It seems as if my article, printed in a small town newspaper dealing with a local issue, has become more of a discussion point around the country. I have been inundated with emails that have been 10-1 “you’re an idiot”. I have been accused of worse and it has given me a few days of fun reading and a lot of chuckles.

    It is apparent that, having been made aware of this board and reading through the comments, many of you haven’t read the article but are reacting to what you think it says. The assumptions are:
    1) I am a reporter-I am not. I live in a small town that depends on local, civic minded people to create content for the newspaper. I am actually a salesman who writes for fun.
    2) I am a “liberal”-I am not but I find it interesting that people use that term as a pejorative.
    3) I don’t shoot or have never shot-I love shooting and have shot things from rifles to large caliber semiauto pistols. It is a rush to pull the trigger on a .50 Cal Desert Eagle or Colt 911, both of which I have done and enjoyed.
    4) I am “anti-gun”-I am not. I think the second amendment is part of the fabric of this country. People mistake wordplay for facts. Many of you tell others that they don’t “believe” in the second amendment. If you say that to me I will tell you I don’t believe in it. Why you ask? Because it is not something you believe in or don’t believe in. The question is foolish and I am being a smartass. It isn’t a matter of faith. The second amendment isn’t the figment of someone’s imagination. It exists. There is nothing to question in terms of belief. I can walk up to the original document and read it. The proper question is; “do you AGREE with the second amendment?” to which I would answer absolutely.

    I will restate my thoughts for clarification and let this be my final word. Many of you here, and most who have emailed me, have said basically that cops suck at shooting and all of you are better. I cannot prove or disprove that and I won’t try. Anecdotal evidence is then presented of LEO qualifying scores and private range scores. I have had all manner of math thrown at me and all of it completely misses the point.

    My point was, is, and will continue to be this. I can stand in a field and throw a football 50 yards. I can put it on target at 50 yards 8 or 9 times out of 10 throws. This isn’t a metaphor I can do this as I have coached and repeat this often. I can tell you unequivocally however that I can’t do this if the entire defensive line of the NY Giants is bearing down on me. It will quickly go from pinpoint accuracy to “duck and chuck”. Pressure changes every game and range scores are irrelevant to real life.
    Can I quantify this with statistics? Nope, I can’t but my better judgment and life experience tells me this is so.

    Why did I write the article then? Simply because we had a situation in my area of the world where a young man walked into a grade school during school hours with a pistol on his hip to vote. His claim was everyone in the school was safer because he chose to exercise his right. He was 25 and was looking for every media outlet he could find for self-aggrandizement. When he finished voting, instead of walking out of the polling area, he wandered around the school until someone stopped him and said he couldn’t find his way out. I found his actions just plain wrong and dangerous. In my opinion, guns and self-inflated ego’s don’t go together.

    Guys, this is my one response to you and it frankly been driven by one of your posters who is a LEO in Ohio whom I had a very nice exchange with. I became aware of this board through him and a gentleman from Seattle. I am not interested in a debate nor will I change my opinion. I do however believe in standing up for what you believe and signing your name. I don’t do monikers and I don’t hide my identity. I am not “realpatriot 123” or “L8fordinner99”, I am Terry Madden from a small town in Michigan and these are my thoughts. Have a great day and God Bless all of you!
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  8. #67
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    Thank you for taking the time to respond, Terry.
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  9. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by theskunk View Post
    Summary:

    This reporter claims that conceal carry types are WyattEarp/Walter Mitty types. That stats prove you shoot more bystanders than criminals. And that a person with a gun at the Aurora theater couldn't have done anything.




    Snippets

    I have to admit it pains me to hear of a massacre like the one in Colorado happening, and the first thing many like to argue is that people in the theater would have been safer if there were more liberal laws allowing licensed owners to carry their guns. In other words, if someone else in that theater had a gun many people may not have died. We will never know for sure, but statistics tell us that, other people shooting as well is probably a recipe for disaster.

    According to the coalition, “in 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%.

    Where distances could be determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:
    Less than 3 Yards — 28%
    3 Yards to 7 Yards — 11%
    7 Yards to 15 Yard – 4.2%”
    This seems to indicate that the hit rate for highly trained officers is 15-25 percent. That ratio has been pretty consistent for the last 30 years according to multiple studies. That means they have a 75 percent chance or better of missing. This is not an indictment of the police as they do amazing work, but rather the inherent unreliability of a shooter in a pressure situation.

    The Virginia Coalition of Police and Deputy Sheriffs put out some interesting statistics regarding handgun accuracy when an officer discharges his or her weapon. Keep in mind these are people who are trained to shoot under pressure situations, not the average citizen.

    Using the movie theater as an example, not only was there imminent danger, there were people running in all directions as well as smoke and darkness. To believe an average person with a pistol would have stopped this massacre is Hollywood fantasy. Could they have? Potentially, but it seems as if the probability is pretty unlikely.

    I believe people have the right to guns and if you want to own them, have at it. Please, however, don’t tell me I am safer because you have a gun on your hip. Statistics say you are as likely to shoot me as the bad guy. If I am in distress, please save your bullets.— Terry F. Madden is a sales engineer with an automation company in Grand Rapids. Contact him at tmadden17@gmail.com.


    Your gun doesn
    Well, the first claim, that more bystanders are hit than BGs stopped is something I never heard of, and because guns are a politicalized issue I think if there was some official information that might point to that I and many would have seen it brought up a long time ago.

  10. #69
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    Terry, thank you taking your time to come here and post this response.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryFMadden View Post
    Gentlemen,

    I am a firm believer in standing up for what you believe and owning what you say. It seems as if my article, printed in a small town newspaper dealing with a local issue, has become more of a discussion point around the country. I have been inundated with emails that have been 10-1 “you’re an idiot”. I have been accused of worse and it has given me a few days of fun reading and a lot of chuckles.

    It is apparent that, having been made aware of this board and reading through the comments, many of you haven’t read the article but are reacting to what you think it says. The assumptions are:
    1) I am a reporter-I am not. I live in a small town that depends on local, civic minded people to create content for the newspaper. I am actually a salesman who writes for fun.
    2) I am a “liberal”-I am not but I find it interesting that people use that term as a pejorative.
    3) I don’t shoot or have never shot-I love shooting and have shot things from rifles to large caliber semiauto pistols. It is a rush to pull the trigger on a .50 Cal Desert Eagle or Colt 911, both of which I have done and enjoyed.
    4) I am “anti-gun”-I am not. I think the second amendment is part of the fabric of this country. People mistake wordplay for facts. Many of you tell others that they don’t “believe” in the second amendment. If you say that to me I will tell you I don’t believe in it. Why you ask? Because it is not something you believe in or don’t believe in. The question is foolish and I am being a smartass. It isn’t a matter of faith. The second amendment isn’t the figment of someone’s imagination. It exists. There is nothing to question in terms of belief. I can walk up to the original document and read it. The proper question is; “do you AGREE with the second amendment?” to which I would answer absolutely.

    I will restate my thoughts for clarification and let this be my final word. Many of you here, and most who have emailed me, have said basically that cops suck at shooting and all of you are better. I cannot prove or disprove that and I won’t try. Anecdotal evidence is then presented of LEO qualifying scores and private range scores. I have had all manner of math thrown at me and all of it completely misses the point.

    My point was, is, and will continue to be this. I can stand in a field and throw a football 50 yards. I can put it on target at 50 yards 8 or 9 times out of 10 throws. This isn’t a metaphor I can do this as I have coached and repeat this often. I can tell you unequivocally however that I can’t do this if the entire defensive line of the NY Giants is bearing down on me. It will quickly go from pinpoint accuracy to “duck and chuck”. Pressure changes every game and range scores are irrelevant to real life.
    Can I quantify this with statistics? Nope, I can’t but my better judgment and life experience tells me this is so.

    Why did I write the article then? Simply because we had a situation in my area of the world where a young man walked into a grade school during school hours with a pistol on his hip to vote. His claim was everyone in the school was safer because he chose to exercise his right. He was 25 and was looking for every media outlet he could find for self-aggrandizement. When he finished voting, instead of walking out of the polling area, he wandered around the school until someone stopped him and said he couldn’t find his way out. I found his actions just plain wrong and dangerous. In my opinion, guns and self-inflated ego’s don’t go together.

    Guys, this is my one response to you and it frankly been driven by one of your posters who is a LEO in Ohio whom I had a very nice exchange with. I became aware of this board through him and a gentleman from Seattle. I am not interested in a debate nor will I change my opinion. I do however believe in standing up for what you believe and signing your name. I don’t do monikers and I don’t hide my identity. I am not “realpatriot 123” or “L8fordinner99”, I am Terry Madden from a small town in Michigan and these are my thoughts. Have a great day and God Bless all of you!
    Hey, Terry, I generally make no assumptions. I am genuinely glad you found your way here, and responded as you did. I, too, am just a guy doing his best, with strong, yet flexible opinions, not making a dime off the written word. I have been shooting for about fifty years, am ex-military, and have no experience in law enforcement. As I said in a previous post, in response to your article title, I don't carry to make you feel safer, but rather to help ensure the safety of me and mine. That was the ONLY point you made, aside from some un-cited statistics, which I took issue with. That's it.

    I can put a round from holstered concealment into the triangle representing the area between the corners and the tip of the eye in less than two seconds every time. It is a shot I take cold nearly every day, and some days the only shot I take. I can put one center mass at 30 yards under the same condition every time, and is the other shot I take cold many days. I know these things in large part as a result of knowledge and skill gained when I took the active shooter/killer course I attended and paid for. That is the same place (different course) I learned about the effects of adrenaline dumps, auditory exclusion, multiple attackers, tunnel vision and 200 beat/minute heart-rates on one's shooting abilities. In those classes, with sometimes as many as thirty other people from all walks, I was in the middle somewhere on the paper-punching, and probably in the top 20% or so on the tactical stuff. I fire off an average of mostly-tactical 1000 training rounds/month and practice dry fire and presentation exercises daily.

    The open carry vs concealed debate is unending, and one I sometimes weigh in on. I have never open-carried publicly in my life, and have no intention of doing so in the future. I have been carrying concealed all day, every day for several years and have never, at least as far as I know, been made by anyone.

    Again, I don't tell you these things to make you feel better, or to make myself seem anything more macho than a guy simply doing his best to get through life as safely and effectively as I can. Right back at you with the good thoughts and blessings, and again, thanks for stopping by. Mike Brewer, Marion County, Ohio
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  12. #71
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    Terry, thank you for coming on here and responding. That was a man-up kinda act. But don't try to confuse us with fancy words like "pejorative".
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  13. #72
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    Thank you for your reasoned response, Mr. Madden.

    From your article:

    I believe people have the right to guns and if you want to own them, have at it. Please, however, don’t tell me I am safer because you have a gun on your hip. Statistics say you are as likely to shoot me as the bad guy. If I am in distress, please save your bullets.
    I agree with your first sentence. The second sentence assumes an argument I never make, but you in fact might be safer if you had a gun and were trained to use it, although that is also conjecture. The third statement is just silly - it depends on a host of factors none of which are detailed. The fourth statement is your decision, but not unlike someone using the rhetorical tool of "enjoy your rape, missus"..........

    Other than that, we appear to agree. It is my right to carry, it is your right to object to same, and your right to not protect yourself. You, however, are not entitled to your own facts.

    Simply because we had a situation in my area of the world where a young man walked into a grade school during school hours with a pistol on his hip to vote. His claim was everyone in the school was safer because he chose to exercise his right. He was 25 and was looking for every media outlet he could find for self-aggrandizement. When he finished voting, instead of walking out of the polling area, he wandered around the school until someone stopped him and said he couldn’t find his way out. I found his actions just plain wrong and dangerous. In my opinion, guns and self-inflated ego’s don’t go together.
    Unfortunate incident.

    Guys, this is my one response to you and it frankly been driven by one of your posters who is a LEO in Ohio whom I had a very nice exchange with. I became aware of this board through him and a gentleman from Seattle. I am not interested in a debate nor will I change my opinion. I do however believe in standing up for what you believe and signing your name. I don’t do monikers and I don’t hide my identity. I am not “realpatriot 123” or “L8fordinner99”, I am Terry Madden from a small town in Michigan and these are my thoughts. Have a great day and God Bless all of you!
    I am not, and won't either, but we do understand each other more. PM me if you would like my name.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryFMadden View Post
    Gentlemen,

    I am a firm believer in standing up for what you believe and owning what you say. It seems as if my article, printed in a small town newspaper dealing with a local issue, has become more of a discussion point around the country. I have been inundated with emails that have been 10-1 “you’re an idiot”. I have been accused of worse and it has given me a few days of fun reading and a lot of chuckles.

    It is apparent that, having been made aware of this board and reading through the comments, many of you haven’t read the article but are reacting to what you think it says. The assumptions are:
    1) I am a reporter-I am not. I live in a small town that depends on local, civic minded people to create content for the newspaper. I am actually a salesman who writes for fun.
    2) I am a “liberal”-I am not but I find it interesting that people use that term as a pejorative.
    3) I don’t shoot or have never shot-I love shooting and have shot things from rifles to large caliber semiauto pistols. It is a rush to pull the trigger on a .50 Cal Desert Eagle or Colt 911, both of which I have done and enjoyed.
    4) I am “anti-gun”-I am not. I think the second amendment is part of the fabric of this country. People mistake wordplay for facts. Many of you tell others that they don’t “believe” in the second amendment. If you say that to me I will tell you I don’t believe in it. Why you ask? Because it is not something you believe in or don’t believe in. The question is foolish and I am being a smartass. It isn’t a matter of faith. The second amendment isn’t the figment of someone’s imagination. It exists. There is nothing to question in terms of belief. I can walk up to the original document and read it. The proper question is; “do you AGREE with the second amendment?” to which I would answer absolutely.

    I will restate my thoughts for clarification and let this be my final word. Many of you here, and most who have emailed me, have said basically that cops suck at shooting and all of you are better. I cannot prove or disprove that and I won’t try. Anecdotal evidence is then presented of LEO qualifying scores and private range scores. I have had all manner of math thrown at me and all of it completely misses the point.

    My point was, is, and will continue to be this. I can stand in a field and throw a football 50 yards. I can put it on target at 50 yards 8 or 9 times out of 10 throws. This isn’t a metaphor I can do this as I have coached and repeat this often. I can tell you unequivocally however that I can’t do this if the entire defensive line of the NY Giants is bearing down on me. It will quickly go from pinpoint accuracy to “duck and chuck”. Pressure changes every game and range scores are irrelevant to real life.
    Can I quantify this with statistics? Nope, I can’t but my better judgment and life experience tells me this is so.

    Why did I write the article then? Simply because we had a situation in my area of the world where a young man walked into a grade school during school hours with a pistol on his hip to vote. His claim was everyone in the school was safer because he chose to exercise his right. He was 25 and was looking for every media outlet he could find for self-aggrandizement. When he finished voting, instead of walking out of the polling area, he wandered around the school until someone stopped him and said he couldn’t find his way out. I found his actions just plain wrong and dangerous. In my opinion, guns and self-inflated ego’s don’t go together.

    Guys, this is my one response to you and it frankly been driven by one of your posters who is a LEO in Ohio whom I had a very nice exchange with. I became aware of this board through him and a gentleman from Seattle. I am not interested in a debate nor will I change my opinion. I do however believe in standing up for what you believe and signing your name. I don’t do monikers and I don’t hide my identity. I am not “realpatriot 123” or “L8fordinner99”, I am Terry Madden from a small town in Michigan and these are my thoughts. Have a great day and God Bless all of you!
    Terry, First off, welcome to the forum (even if this was your one and only post). Secondly, I did read your article and while I have no issue with your use of statistics, I do take issue with your assumptions.

    I don’t know why guys in particular buy a gun and automatically think they are marksmen. Any time these topics come up, many guys start preening about what they would have done if they had been in that theater. In Ramboesque bluster they claim they could pull their gun and put the shooter down. Isn’t that the main argument you get from those in favor of “open carry” and “concelaed carry” laws? The argument is we are all safer if others have guns.
    If anything, the great majority of post written here reflect the exact opposite of this statement, and your choice to characterize advocates of CC or OC is as inflammatory as it is ill informed. Are there some folks that might exhibit the mentality you speak of? Of course there are. Are they representative of the larger group of gun owners that choose to carry to protect themselves and their family? Definitively not. Sure there are plenty of those OC "advocates" that look to make a point and get their five minutes of fame on some YouTube video, but once again, they aren't representative of the larger group, so making characterizations like you did, only hurts your argument.

    Secondly, you seem to be comfortable equating the low hit percentage of documented police shootings with innocent bystanders being accidentally shot with those shots that fall into the "missed" percentage. That may be something that you are comfortable equating but it's not realistic. If you want to use the recent shooting in New York where bystanders were actually hit, then fine, but to assume that the "missed" percentage equates, in any way, to some statistical probability for being hit by one of those misses, is just not credible. You need actual data on specific events to "assume" the likelihood that you base your opinion on.

    I agree that most folks that are licensed to carry are probably not trained well enough to effectively neutralize an aggressor in an environment such as the Aurora Colorado shooting, but I do believe that everyone should have the right to self defense; regardless of statistical guesses. You can make guesses on what any X factor would have had on the scenario, but the bottom line is it's still a guess. The only factual argument that can be made from that incident is what a well armed assailant, intent on killing, can do to an unarmed group of people.

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    Terry thank you for responding here, that was a real stand-up thing to do. We need more people who are willing to do that.

    I do find your reason for writting the article (below) disturbing.

    Why did I write the article then? Simply because we had a situation in my area of the world where a young man walked into a grade school during school hours with a pistol on his hip to vote. His claim was everyone in the school was safer because he chose to exercise his right. He was 25 and was looking for every media outlet he could find for self-aggrandizement. When he finished voting, instead of walking out of the polling area, he wandered around the school until someone stopped him and said he couldn’t find his way out. I found his actions just plain wrong and dangerous. In my opinion, guns and self-inflated ego’s don’t go together.
    It also seems to me that you are not wanting to take away my right to carry a firearm for self defense, but there are some people who do that make you uncomfortable.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TerryFMadden View Post
    I am not interested in a debate nor will I change my opinion.
    A discussion forum based on dialog, then, is an interesting place to be. As is a particular discussion thread debating the relative merits of a writing that is worthy of debate.

    Welcome to the forum, by the way. Enjoy your stay ... and certainly feel free to contribute to the dialog.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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