BAD Law Enforcement: Campus Police LEO Shoots and Kills Naked Freshman

This is a discussion on BAD Law Enforcement: Campus Police LEO Shoots and Kills Naked Freshman within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by detective I must disagree, police against a fighter - [1] and one just erratic, and but 135 lbs, not a known BG ...

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Thread: BAD Law Enforcement: Campus Police LEO Shoots and Kills Naked Freshman

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    I must disagree, police against a fighter - [1] and one just erratic, and but 135 lbs, not a known BG - are not [2] supposed to go their guns first unless the person has a weapon or they see one on him. He couldn't have, he's naked, that's obvious. In such a case, [3]They are supposed to call for back-up and a supervisor, and if they feel in danger before that arrives use non-lethal means first to subdue the person. [4]What could the kid do against a police officer at 135 lbs with nothing but his body that the cop could not meet and from training, physically fend off, or defeat by throwing down and cuffing, or next use mace, taser, a club. [5] Lastly, he can retreat to wait for back-up in his own headquarters a few feet away, I see no reason in this situation protocol would have him go first for the gun and killing. There's about 4 or 5 things this LEO on a Campus (or anywhere) could do handle the situation successfully without killing.

    There would only be a lethal threat here from the kid to someone in old age and unarmed completely.

    But his is not a lethal threat to a police officer and at 1:30am on a college campus no others would be around for the kid to attack.

    I saw the same situation in New York City: only this obviously insane person had a knife but he was just sitting against a wall threatening with it. He was surrounded by police, at a distance, and their supervisor talked the man down and into putting the knife down on the ground. Cuffed and searched, he was taken by ambulance to a hospital.
    That's the way police handle it usually. No shooting, no deaths and help for the person mentally ill.

    1) Did the cops know the kids history? Do you know if the kid had priors?

    2) Did you verify this? Do you know if the cop "went for the gun first?"

    3) Can you verify this is the standard training and is to apply for all cases?

    4) He could kill the cop with his body, that's what the young man could do.

    5) Retreat? And leave the erratic man alone to possibly harm someone else? What about the possible headline "Cop flees naked man and naked man kill female college student while cop waits for backup?"

    With all due respect, you seem to be arguing based on emotion rather than logic. And you weren't there, so you don't know all the facts. The shooting will be investigated, and if the cop was in the wrong, then actions will be taken. Until then, conclusions based on a lack of facts are not helpful.
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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    Given how made up your mind is, I doubt any amount of dissenting opinions will cause you to reevaluate your own take on this tragic situation. After reading the article and doing a quick google search on the event, I would have to say that I cannot agree with your feelings on the shooting.

    Unless you were there you have absolutely no way of actually judging how much of a 'threat' that person was. Them being naked is absolutely irrelevant to anything other than solidifying the fact that the person in question was acting way outside the boundaries of 'normal'. Your idea that they just couldn't be a threat under those conditions illustrates more about your lack of understanding of how much of a threat a person like that can actually be. The idea that the officer should just 'retreat to the station' and get some less lethal measures to deal with an out of control individual is ludicrous. Let me offer you an example, because while you might feel this response is perfectly reasonable and would have saved the boy's life, how would you feel if your daughter was killed by an out of control naked man who was left alone to kill innocent passers-by because the police retreated to their station to get some tazers to shock him with? No, I'm sorry but that just isn't a practical or necessary step for law enforcement. They also shouldn't have to get into a physical altercation with every deranged person before they deploy their weapon. The individual was given, by the sounds of it, plenty of opportunities to save his own life, and he recklessly ignored those options, to his own demise.

    How about you just lay the 'blame' where it belongs, on the out of control individual who made every wrong choice and paid the price for it.
    I agree with your post up to the last sentence. It appears that the kid was not in control of himself, whether from drugs, alcohol, a mental issue, or reasons beyond his control. My son is in college right now and thr stress for some kids is high. He has seen one girl had to be taken to the hospital from some sort of mental stress.
    I would not judge so quickly that the young man was responsible for his actions as I would not judge the officer for overeacting.

    It is a sad situation for all involved.
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  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I agree with your post up to the last sentence. It appears that the kid was not in control of himself, whether from drugs, alcohol, a mental issue, or reasons beyond his control. My son is in college right now and thr stress for some kids is high. He has seen one girl had to be taken to the hospital from some sort of mental stress.
    I would not judge so quickly that the young man was responsible for his actions as I would not judge the officer for overeacting.

    It is a sad situation for all involved.
    I completely agree the boy wasn't in control of himself and I'm not trying to imply that 'he got what was comin' to him' or that he 'deserved' to be killed. I'm simply stating the fact that it was his actions (regardless of the underlying cause) that put him where he is now; not a trigger happy, out for blood, cop, as the OP seems to suggest. I have three sons, so don't think for one minute that I can't, or don't, have a great deal of sympathy for the situation, because I absolutely do. Why he made those choices, or what condition or influence made them for him, is absolutely a nonissue to the initial event because the responding LEO is dealing with the 'here and now' not the 'what if's and why's', so unless someone else is pointing a gun at the kid and forcing him act that way, he is responsible, even if there's an underlying cause that makes his dangerous or threatening choices seem 'right' at the time. My statements aren't a judgement on the child, they are a judgment on the situation as it was reported.

    I agree that it's a sad situation for all involved.
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    I too will try to reserve judgement on this one as I think that there is more to this than the one CNN article is point out. However, my initial take on this is that while the shoot can, and most likely will, be declared justfied that it is one of those times that it would have been better for all to back off, call for backup, and try to observe the situation. Whether it is media bias or not, I can't say, but what is written strikes me as a case of "I gave a command and .... by god I gave a COMMAND".

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    I am thinking I may have shot as well, a fellow in his shape can go a long time in a fight. If the cop had let it go to a hand to hand and lost and the BG got his weapon and shot several students there would be hell to pay for that.

    With the resent things in the news about such things, and he got up to restart the fight, it would seem it may have been an appropriate choice, given the history on other attacks with naked people. Without seeing it, or at least more information, I would not want to pass judgment.

    We as a society need to start putting the blame/responsibility on the ones that created it, not necessarily on the ones left after the fight, just because they survived it.
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  7. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by noway2 View Post
    I too will try to reserve judgement on this one as I think that there is more to this than the one CNN article is point out. However, my initial take on this is that while the shoot can, and most likely will, be declared justfied that it is one of those times that it would have been better for all to back off, call for backup, and try to observe the situation. Whether it is media bias or not, I can't say, but what is written strikes me as a case of "I gave a command and .... by god I gave a COMMAND".
    After the Zimmerman fiasco, I will never base my opinion of a shooting solely on initial, or even subsequent media reports.
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  8. #22
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    I have no idea about other states laws. But in NM, if im in fear of DEATH or GREAT BODILY HARM, I can use lethal force.

    I wasnt there so I dont know what I would have done. Just because someone is unarmed, doesnt mean they arent a lethal threat.
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  9. #23
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    Also note the time all this occurred: 1:23 a.m. The "Stupid Times" from the 4S Rule.

    It wasn't in the middle of the day.

    Personally, though, I'm glad the AL cop did hit his target, unlike the NYPD who injured multiple persons with shrapnel from missed rounds a short while ago.

  10. #24
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    Perhaps 'detective' should dig a little deeper:
    The officer retreated numerous times in an attempt to calm the situation."

    Ayers said the Collar continued to press toward the officer in a threatening manner, at one point rushing and chasing the officer as he continued to retreat away from the building.

    Ayers said, "When the individual continued to rush toward the officer in a threatening manner, and ignored the officer's repeated commands to stop, the officer fired one shot with his police sidearm, which struck the chest of the assailant. The individual fell to the ground, but he got up once more, and continued to challenge the officer further before collapsing and expiring."

  11. #25
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    I have a son who wrestles at that level and weight. God help anyone who tried to cuff him while he was in a fight. Hes all bone and mussel, and trains every day at the hand to hand level. the small frame of the student doesn't earn him a pass. DR
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  12. #26
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    Lets not forget that the yound man IS responsible for his actions.

    Using drugs,alcohol or even stress as a reason to justify his stupidity is not a valid excuse.

    Lots of people stress out at college. That dosent justify them running around naked or refusing to comply with a cop.
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  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    I saw the same situation in New York City: only this obviously insane person had a knife but he was just sitting against a wall threatening with it. He was surrounded by police, at a distance, and their supervisor talked the man down and into putting the knife down on the ground. Cuffed and searched, he was taken by ambulance to a hospital.
    That's the way police handle it usually. No shooting, no deaths and help for the person mentally ill.
    The same?
    NYPD 30,000+ officers. This university department? I don't think this officer can expect that kind of back up.
    NYC guy armed with a knife- this guy unarmed.
    NYC guy surrounded by officers- this guy one on one.
    NYC guy leaning against a wall- this guy repeatedly charged the officer.
    So tell me, how were these incidents "the same"?

    As far as the officer being able to retreat goes, SCOTUS has repeatedly ruled that the barring a special relationship with a department the police have no obligation to protect any individual. Their obligation is to protect the community in general. While retreating may have protected the deceased (individual) it would have required putting the student body (community in general) at additional risk.
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  14. #28
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    I have mixed feelings on this one. On one hand, my oldest son is an eighteen year old college freshman and my parental instincts are screaming for the officers head. On the other hand, I remember myself that at that age being, 5' 10" and 160 lbs, I know that I would have been a significant threat unarmed. We have the luxury of sitting back with additional information about the young man that the officer probably was unaware of. Do I think non-lethal means should have been employed? Absolutely! Was the officer wrong? Putting myself in his place, and as much as it pains me, I would have to say no. Now they need to learn from this tragedy and provide additional training.
    Disarming innocent people does not protect innocent people.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScottM View Post
    Perhaps 'detective' should dig a little deeper:
    Given the number of non-LEO assumptions that he has made in his previous posts, I'm doubting that "detective" refers to any sort of official capacity or previous occupation...

    You mean to tell me a police officer on a college campus does not carry secondary to lethal weapons that he can't stop an erratic and threatening 18 yr old student without shooting to kill
    Obviously, all police everywhere are not issued 'secondary to lethal options'

    Police are supposed to pass physical exams, they are not disabled senior citizens
    I guess you haven't paid much attention to hiring practices for these types of jobs.

    an Officer who should be physically fit FOR THE JOB, should have handcuffs, mace, a radio to call for help, a club-like device like the old billy-club to subdue, and/or a taser - and then a gun
    See my previous answer (I do like the radio idea though, in Star Trek they can beam assistance down in mere seconds, I guess that's what should have happened here too)

    ...not a born murderer
    And you 'know' this how? More importantly, the officer was supposed to know this how?

    the Officer supposed to be strong and trained to physically restrain healthy and strong men, especially if they weigh 135 lbs
    See two above

    ...at least go back inside and call for help
    Yeah, that's a great idea. And if the banging was coming from the person this guy attacked, I guess it's just too bad for them

    18 yr old lying dead needlessly because of a freaked out Officer and/or an Officer with no training
    this is based on what (other than supposition)?

    This is different. You can't fear the kids on Bath Salts and kill him because he might be. Police are supposed to use a graded response with a variety of non-lethal weapons against an unarmed person
    No it's actually not much different in terms of the erratic individual, which is all the responding officer actually knows about at the time

    police against a fighter - and one just erratic, and but 135 lbs, not a known BG - are not supposed to go their guns first unless the person has a weapon or they see one on him
    You go do the job for a while and then make that statement, because I'm sure you'll somehow 'know' all the bad guys

    if they feel in danger before that arrives use non-lethal means first to subdue the person
    Yeah, and if that doesn't work, they can always ask for a time-out and then run to a safe location where they can continue to avoid doing their job

    What could the kid do against a police officer at 135 lbs with nothing but his body that the cop could not meet and from training, physically fend off, or defeat by throwing down and cuffing, or next use mace, taser, a club. Lastly, he can retreat to wait for back-up in his own headquarters a few feet away, I see no reason in this situation protocol would have him go first for the gun and killing. There's about 4 or 5 things this LEO on a Campus (or anywhere) could do handle the situation successfully without killing
    And you received your LEO training that gives you this insight where?

    There would only be a lethal threat here from the kid to someone in old age and unarmed completely
    Um, not really, but if you want to fight someone in that condition to prove how unthreatening it actually is, go for it

    at 1:30am on a college campus no others would be around for the kid to attack
    Haven't wandered around many college campuses at that hour, have you? Maybe on your campus everything shuts down at 11 PM...

    That's the way police handle it usually. No shooting, no deaths and help for the person mentally ill
    No, that's how they handled it that time. Each and every situation is different and that one is very different from this incident

    a drunk 135 lb person with no weapon would not be thought of as a lethal threat
    Maybe not to you, but you aren't out there doing the job either. In my mind I can make all those passes and catches that the pros drop, but that doesn't really give me the experience to judge their actions

    the LEO would have cuffs and training in physical methods of over-powering, so I still wouldn't see a lethal threat here
    See above

    he could have retreated into his freakin' headquarters to wait 3 or 4 minutes for back up
    Sure, he could put the whole student body in danger just to avoid having to deal with the individual; that's the sort of mentality that I want on duty when I need LEO assistance...

  16. #30
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    More about a bad outcome as a result of a policeman reaching for the pepper spray instead of the Glock when dealing with a naked crazed person:
    Hearing final pleas of slain deputy tears at family, jurors as trial opens - seattlepi.com
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