BAD Law Enforcement: Campus Police LEO Shoots and Kills Naked Freshman

BAD Law Enforcement: Campus Police LEO Shoots and Kills Naked Freshman

This is a discussion on BAD Law Enforcement: Campus Police LEO Shoots and Kills Naked Freshman within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; You mean to tell me a police officer on a college campus does not carry secondary to lethal weapons that he can't stop an erratic ...

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Thread: BAD Law Enforcement: Campus Police LEO Shoots and Kills Naked Freshman

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array detective's Avatar
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    BAD Law Enforcement: Campus Police LEO Shoots and Kills Naked Freshman

    You mean to tell me a police officer on a college campus does not carry secondary to lethal weapons that he can't stop an erratic and threatening 18 yr old student without shooting to kill???! This makes me very angry, I teach in a university, occasional drunk and/or erratic students are part and parcel of Campus Police jobs - Police are supposed to pass physical exams, they are not disabled senior citizens who have a huge, meth-head BG coming at them to beat them to death screaming "YOU DIE NOW" - THAT'S disparity of force. Not an Officer who should be physically fit FOR THE JOB, should have handcuffs, mace, a radio to call for help, a club-like device like the old billy-club to subdue, and/or a taser - and then a gun. Granted the kid had been a High-School wrestler and muscular but he was 5' 7" and weighed 135lbs, he's naked and obviously erratic and not a born murderer, and the Officer supposed to be strong and trained to physically restrain healthy and strong men, especially if they weigh 135 lbs. Or, in front of the Police Headquarters, at least go back inside and call for help - this is not in the middle of a tundra someplace with a 90yr old and a blood-thirsty 7' savage pairing up.

    I hope they have an independent and really thorough investigation of this killing - face value sounds to me like an 18 yr old lying dead needlessly because of a freaked out Officer and/or an Officer with no training:
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Campus Officer Kills Naked Freshman At University of South Alabama

    Campus officer kills naked freshman at University of South Alabama - CNN.com

    (One other point: article said the Officer ordered the kid to back off several times, that he (the officer) retreated - and then drew his gun when the kid kept on. Especially given the other circumstances that I or the article mentioned, if the kid ignored the warning this would be the time - not to draw and prepare to shoot - but to go back into the Headquarters building, call for help, then return with mace or taser in hand to observe until back-up came and - if the kid charges and the Officer doesn't think he can handle it with physical training and get the kid down to cuff him, well, use the mace or taser. Naked 135 pounders are obviously not carrying other weapons and don't have the strength of Mike Tyson. Fact, he shouldn't have had to go back inside, just use his physical training or the mace/taser that he carries and then cuff him. Back-up comes and takes him away. End of story.)


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    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Well, without having been there and seen what happened, I do have to say that if I hear "naked and acting erratically" the first thing I think is bath salts. I, personally, would shoot a 5'7" guy that I thought was on bath salts so as not to have my face eaten. I do think the incident requires further investigation though (gosh, hope that wasn't cop bashing...).
    Last edited by Brad426; October 7th, 2012 at 07:04 AM.
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    clc
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    It sounds like the cop handled the crazed bad guy like he should have. Im glad the cop was not injured. Hopefully they want find any other victims from this young nut case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad426 View Post
    Well, without having been there and seen what happened, I do have to say that if I hear "naked and acting erratically" the first thing I think is bath salts. I, personally, would shoot a 5'7" guy that I thought was on bath salts so as not to have my face eaten. I do thinks the incident requires further investigation though (gosh, hope that wasn't cop bashing...).
    Well, "Bath Salts" was up against a homeless man, not a trained Leo. When police arrived Bath Salts was in the act of killing the homeless man - and had to shoot. This is different. You can't fear the kids on Bath Salts and kill him because he might be. Police are supposed to use a graded response with a variety of non-lethal weapons against an unarmed person. They have tapes I think, surveillance cameras. If they taped this it should tell the actual story.
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    VIP Member Array Brad426's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    Well, "Bath Salts" was up against a homeless man, not a trained Leo. When police arrived Bath Salts was in the act of killing the homeless man - and had to shoot. This is different. You can't fear the kids on Bath Salts and kill him because he might be. Police are supposed to use a graded response with a variety of non-lethal weapons against an unarmed person. They have tapes I think, surveillance cameras. If they taped this it should tell the actual story.
    There are lots of bath salts incidents, not just the one in Miami you are referring to (although even in that one it was law enforcement that ended it). From what I've read and seen video of, people on bath salts are highly erratic and aggressive, so I can't fault this campus cop if that was indeed the case. If there is video that will certainly help determine if his actions were justified.
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    Quote Originally Posted by clc View Post
    It sounds like the cop handled the crazed bad guy like he should have. Im glad the cop was not injured. Hopefully they want find any other victims from this young nut case.
    I must disagree, police against a fighter - and one just erratic, and but 135 lbs, not a known BG - are not supposed to go their guns first unless the person has a weapon or they see one on him. He couldn't have, he's naked, that's obvious. In such a case, They are supposed to call for back-up and a supervisor, and if they feel in danger before that arrives use non-lethal means first to subdue the person. What could the kid do against a police officer at 135 lbs with nothing but his body that the cop could not meet and from training, physically fend off, or defeat by throwing down and cuffing, or next use mace, taser, a club. Lastly, he can retreat to wait for back-up in his own headquarters a few feet away, I see no reason in this situation protocol would have him go first for the gun and killing. There's about 4 or 5 things this LEO on a Campus (or anywhere) could do handle the situation successfully without killing.

    There would only be a lethal threat here from the kid to someone in old age and unarmed completely.

    But his is not a lethal threat to a police officer and at 1:30am on a college campus no others would be around for the kid to attack.

    I saw the same situation in New York City: only this obviously insane person had a knife but he was just sitting against a wall threatening with it. He was surrounded by police, at a distance, and their supervisor talked the man down and into putting the knife down on the ground. Cuffed and searched, he was taken by ambulance to a hospital.
    That's the way police handle it usually. No shooting, no deaths and help for the person mentally ill.
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    When the individual continued to rush toward the officer in a threatening manner and ignored the officer's repeated commands to stop, the officer fired one shot with his police sidearm, which struck the chest of the assailant," the school statement said. "The individual fell to the ground, but he got up once more and continued to challenge the officer further before collapsing and expiring."
    "He was wearing no clothes and he was obviously not in his right mind,"
    Not in his right mind. Ya think?

    Sounds like a drug induced fit.

    And for those that wonder, the college campus officers where I live dont have tasers either, because the University bosses were too cheap to buy them.
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Not in his right mind. Ya think?

    Sounds like a drug induced fit.

    And for those that wonder, the college campus officers wherw I live dont have tasers either, because the University bosses were too cheap to buy them.
    Can't know it was a drug-induced fit, or alcohol or just a temporary freak out, what's important is the options available to the officer - a drunk 135 lb person with no weapon would not be thought of as a lethal threat. If the University gave the police nothing but guns then they are responsible - but even so, the LEO would have cuffs and training in physical methods of over-powering, so I still wouldn't see a lethal threat here - and he could have retreated into his freakin' headquarters to wait 3 or 4 minutes for back up, form other Campus Police and area Police who respond to requests for help.

    Don't buy the killing one little bit. It was unnecessary and against a non-lethal threat.

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    From the article:
    She said he weighed 135 pounds and was 5-foot-7 with a wrestler's build.
    The article also states he was 'muscular'.

    What do we know about the cop? In a world where we hire petite women (and men) to do LE work, the student may have out weighed the officer.

    I'm about 5'11 and 220, but I had a guy on drugs once lift me completely off the ground and slam me into a wall.
    It was unnecessary and against a non-lethal threat.
    An unarmed man acting erratically can hardly be called a 'non-lethal threat'.
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    clc
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    People are forced to shoot wild animals pretty often. A 135 pound bear or dog only have teeth and nails to do damage with. Same weapons this whack job had with him. Its a shame he had to be put down.

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    Can't know it was a drug-induced fit, or alcohol or just a temporary freak out, what's important is the options available to the officer - a drunk 135 lb person with no weapon would not be thought of as a lethal threat. If the University gave the police nothing but guns then they are responsible - but even so, the LEO would have cuffs and training in physical methods of over-powering, so I still wouldn't see a lethal threat here - and he could have retreated into his freakin' headquarters to wait 3 or 4 minutes for back up, form other Campus Police and area Police who respond to requests for help.

    Don't buy the killing one little bit. It was unnecessary and against a non-lethal threat
    .

    It was some sort of fit. A guy dosent take one in the chest and try to get up and continue fighting.
    There may have only been one or two officers on duty. Even if there were,it would take time to get there if they were on a sizable campus.

    The guy was a championship wrestler...so its quite possible that the cop figured it would be a losing event if he went hands on.

    Any you yourself know that cops dont retreat into headquarters when someone is going beserk.

    Its very possible that the campus cop was only a few years older than the guy he shot. Its very possible that he didnt have a clue of how to fight...its not like you learn how to fight anymore, if you even draw a picture of a fight you are liable to get suspended in school and God forbid that you actually hit back when trying to defend yourself.

    We have cops on the force that never shot a gun until the academy,never got in a fight, and still,several years later couldnt fight their way out of a wet paper sack. So they do what they can with the tools that they have. Some universtity cops dont even have pepper spray.

    Non lethal threat? We dont really know that do we? I'd be willing to bet that a wrestler could take a cop that was smaller than him. What if the kid manhandled the cop, grabbed his gun and shot him? Then we'd all be wondering why he didnt shoot.

    I've worked with University cops when they called for backup, and most of the time, they are danged if they do and danged if they dont... its usually a no win situation for a cop.

    And something else. I'm 6'2 and a solid 265. The worst fights I have even gotten in were with scawnly muscled up dudes half my size. They are fast, they are hard to grab and they dont give up until you knock them silly.

    Without a doubt, its a tragedy that the kid got shot, but he started it.
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    To the original OP, google "Deputy Richard Herzog" to see what can happen to an LEO who sprays instead of shoots a crazed naked man. That is one of the two incidents involving dead friends of mine which prompted me to carry guns at all times.
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    I was not there and do not know all the details so I will reserve judgment on much of it.
    The quote from the article (see below) does lend to him being a threat.
    If other options were not available to the officer then with the information I have at present seems justifiable use of force.

    "When the individual continued to rush toward the officer in a threatening manner and ignored the officer's repeated commands to stop,
    the officer fired one shot with his police sidearm, which struck the chest of the assailant," the school statement said. "
    The individual fell to the ground, but he got up once more and continued to challenge the officer further before collapsing and expiring."

    I am not large in stature; however with the training I have had I am a threat to many people much larger than me.
    What I am getting at is one cannot know how dangerous an individual is.
    With the described behavior, continued challenges with weapon drawn; the perpetrator gave a lot of substance to being deemed a threat.
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    Not judging the outcome of this encounter, but I have witnessed a 135lber destroy a fit 6' former football player.

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    Quote Originally Posted by detective View Post
    Can't know it was a drug-induced fit, or alcohol or just a temporary freak out, what's important is the options available to the officer - a drunk 135 lb person with no weapon would not be thought of as a lethal threat. If the University gave the police nothing but guns then they are responsible - but even so, the LEO would have cuffs and training in physical methods of over-powering, so I still wouldn't see a lethal threat here - and he could have retreated into his freakin' headquarters to wait 3 or 4 minutes for back up, form other Campus Police and area Police who respond to requests for help.

    Don't buy the killing one little bit. It was unnecessary and against a non-lethal threat.
    Given how made up your mind is, I doubt any amount of dissenting opinions will cause you to reevaluate your own take on this tragic situation. After reading the article and doing a quick google search on the event, I would have to say that I cannot agree with your feelings on the shooting.

    Unless you were there you have absolutely no way of actually judging how much of a 'threat' that person was. Them being naked is absolutely irrelevant to anything other than solidifying the fact that the person in question was acting way outside the boundaries of 'normal'. Your idea that they just couldn't be a threat under those conditions illustrates more about your lack of understanding of how much of a threat a person like that can actually be. The idea that the officer should just 'retreat to the station' and get some less lethal measures to deal with an out of control individual is ludicrous. Let me offer you an example, because while you might feel this response is perfectly reasonable and would have saved the boy's life, how would you feel if your daughter was killed by an out of control naked man who was left alone to kill innocent passers-by because the police retreated to their station to get some tazers to shock him with? No, I'm sorry but that just isn't a practical or necessary step for law enforcement. They also shouldn't have to get into a physical altercation with every deranged person before they deploy their weapon. The individual was given, by the sounds of it, plenty of opportunities to save his own life, and he recklessly ignored those options, to his own demise.

    How about you just lay the 'blame' where it belongs, on the out of control individual who made every wrong choice and paid the price for it.
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