Bad-Cop shoots at truck tires, kills illegals

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Thread: Bad-Cop shoots at truck tires, kills illegals

  1. #136
    Senior Member Array CIBMike's Avatar
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    If we hamstring our boarder patrol phisically as well as politically some day we will pay a heavy price.We are already paying the price in drugs ,crime and stolen benefits.If we tie the arms of our law enforcement any more someone with big terrible ideas and the logistics to put these ideas into action will notice this and do something catastrophic and if we don't let the folks in uniform do what they do best that person or persons will get away with it.
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  3. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFury View Post
    Hopyard, lethal force was not being used.
    Uh, since when is shooting not lethal force, and if it wasn't lethal force how come there are
    two dead people; regardless of whether or not that was the intent.

    If I shoot at my neighbor's dog I'm using lethal force, even though the shot is not aimed at a person.
    And if I miss the dog and hit someone else, I'm in big doo for my negligence.

    In the case being discussed lethal force was being used (even if not directed to the driver but intended
    for an inanimate object, the car, and unintended targets were hit. The targets were human beings
    who had not been sentenced for any crime and did not deserve to die. Their crime
    of entering illegally -- which is surmise actually since they could be here illegally but this was not when
    they entered--- may not have been a felony at all:

    8 USC § 1325 - Improper entry by alien
    a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection; misrepresentation and concealment of facts
    Any alien who
    (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers, or
    (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers, or
    (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both,

    So, the penalty for a misdemeanor (?? we don't know if this was a first or 3rd attempt) becomes death? We are better than that, besides the fact that our law doesn't support
    the notion.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  4. #138
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    And if innocents get hit when that shot is taken you are OK with that? Or, in this case, not innocents,
    but folks not legally deserving of the death penalty got killed. Your OK with that?

    There is an "end justifies" the means attitude buried in there which I find unacceptable.
    And you would rather innocents get struck and killed by vehicles involved in pursuits that go on until there is a wreck? The death penalty for people completely uninvolved in any way shape or form other than a coincidence of geography? You're OK with that?

    Statistically speaking innocent people are exponentially more likely to be killed or injured by collisions involving vehicles from a pursuit than they are from errant gunfire from attempts to disable fleeing vehicles.

    Just say we are doing it for the children.
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  5. #139
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Just say we are doing it for the children.
    Yeah, maybe a drunk dad with his kids in the vehicle running from the cops. Yeah, good plan. Let us do it for the children.

    I think the big difference is that some folks are looking at the end result and they figure they illegals were breaking the law so they deserved it. (or fill in your own sentiment). Others, myself, are looking at from the point of view that if there is no imminent danger to bystanders (which so far there has been none mentioned) and the LEO's are not sure (how could they be, they were wrong about the cargo) then don't be shooting at a moving vehicle from a helicopter.

    One poster keeps saying they were travelling in a known route for drugs. Big whoop de doo. That is not even enough cause to stop a vehicle.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  6. #140
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    Uh, since when is shooting not lethal force, and if it wasn't lethal force how come there are
    two dead people; regardless of whether or not that was the intent.
    The fate of the unknown cargo matters not. The shooting was done to stop the fleeing vehicle with only two known occupants in the cab of the vehicle. The intent does matter. The intent was to keep the United States a little bit safer for all of us. They were actually trying to stop the vehicle without killing the known occupants.

    Yeah, maybe a drunk dad with his kids in the vehicle running from the cops. Yeah, good plan. Let us do it for the children.
    I agree the vehicle should be stopped not for the sake of the kids in that vehicle necessarily, but for the sake of other kids that could be run over. If the vehicle can be stopped in such a way to keep the occupants alive, great, but it's not a needed requirement.

    Fleeing criminals in cars should be stopped as quickly as possible without regards to the safety of the people in the vehicles. For the safety of all.
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  7. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFury View Post
    The fate of the unknown cargo matters not. The shooting was done to stop the fleeing vehicle with only two known occupants in the cab of the vehicle. The intent does matter. The intent was to keep the United States a little bit safer for all of us. They were actually trying to stop the vehicle without killing the known occupants.
    End results matter as well. You don't get a free pass for good intentions.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  8. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Not one of the posts above addressed the core issue: What is TX law, not DPS policy, on
    the use of deadly force to prevent a suspect (and that is all they were when shot at) from
    fleeing?
    Go through the handbook/penal code and try to pick out (you can't) the justification that applies
    in this situation.
    Section 9.41 & 9.42 of the Texas Penal Code.

    The driver was posing a serious threat to the patrol officers in pursuit on the ground since they were putting their lives at risk continuing the high speed pursuit. The officer in the helo ended a serious threat to fellow officers who were in immediate danger. The officer stopped the truck without shooting either of the known occupants. Looks like he shot the back tire which shows he was using due care to avoid hitting the known occupants. The illegals in the back were illegally crossing our border and riding in the back of a pickup (which is also illegal) - rack that up to play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    If officers use spike strips in the city limits on a pu and someone, unknown to be riding in the bed, is killed in a resultant accident I can't holding the officer who laid out the spike guilty of anything. These officers used the tools available to them at the time.
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  9. #143
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    Letter of reprimand for wasting ammo.
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  10. #144
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedrgr21 View Post
    Section 9.41 & 9.42 of the Texas Penal Code.

    The driver was posing a serious threat to the patrol officers in pursuit on the ground since they were putting their lives at risk continuing the high speed pursuit. The officer in the helo ended a serious threat to fellow officers who were in immediate danger. The officer stopped the truck without shooting either of the known occupants. Looks like he shot the back tire which shows he was using due care to avoid hitting the known occupants. The illegals in the back were illegally crossing our border and riding in the back of a pickup (which is also illegal) - rack that up to play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

    If officers use spike strips in the city limits on a pu and someone, unknown to be riding in the bed, is killed in a resultant accident I can't holding the officer who laid out the spike guilty of anything. These officers used the tools available to them at the time.
    I do not think anyone is blaming the officer. It is a question of if the policy of shooting from helos to stop a vehicle is a wise one. Of course anything can happen if you use strips. But shooting from a helo is not a very accurate way of shooting. Yada yada..it stopped this vehicle this time. I am talking about policy. I can garuntee you that if there was a hostage in the vehicle and they got killed there would be a lot of folks up in arms about the use of shooting from a helo.
    That is how you make policy. Youu what if the best and worse, base that on wha is legal and proceed. Youu do not base it on "it worked this time"
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    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  11. #145
    Member Array Miamieddie's Avatar
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    Shooting from helo not safe....... Would a pit menuever be safer?? In any ones oppinion.

  12. #146
    Member Array Miamieddie's Avatar
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    What im saying in the above statment is, theres no safe way of stopping a high speed fleeing vehicle safely the leo's used what available action they had at the time..
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  13. #147
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    So is it just a question of the helo? DPS troopers shoot tires out from their cruisers on a fairly regular basis. Would we be discussing this if they had done it from a car?
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  14. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    So is it just a question of the helo? DPS troopers shoot tires out from their cruisers on a fairly regular basis. Would we be discussing this if they had done it from a car?
    Yes we would, especially if two people were killed, and especially (slightly different situation), if
    one of those was The Mayor's son, under a blanket in the bed of the truck.
    You bet we'd be discussing it.

    There would be plenty of discussion.
    Suntzu has already explained why.

    @MCP-- I'm sorry you were involved in the incident you related, and I understand how that
    affects your thinking on this episode.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  15. #149
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    So Suntzu and Hopyard what do you propose as a better solution?
    Chase them until they wreck killing or injuring God knows who,
    Don't chase anyone who you have not witnessed committing a violent felony (letting drunks just drive away)
    Don't chase anyone.
    Other.
    If other please specify criteria for chasing and the for disabling. (convertible with top down driven by escaped convicted serial killer etc)
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  16. #150
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    Frustrated? Do you know for sure if the vehicle would have been a threat? Do you know if they could have used other means to stop the vehicle? Those are the points I have been talking about. Nobody is saying handcuff LE.

    But if they know this is a route for drug dealers, and they have had people run from them before..don't ya think that they would have a better plan than shooting from a helicopter? This is not a spur of the moment thing in an area that is not know for BG's fleeing. Don't ya just think that someone would have sat down and triied to come up with a different plan in case there are innocent people in the vehicle.

    I have already said that other methods could have caused the same loss of life. But I know for a fact that shooting from a helo to a moving object is not that accurate. Been there.

    Don't ya think that maybe at least after this they might change there ROE? And if they do don;t ya think that they could have done it before.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

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