Bad-Cop shoots at truck tires, kills illegals

This is a discussion on Bad-Cop shoots at truck tires, kills illegals within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; For all those who disagree with the leo's action here, would your thoughts be defferant if these fleeing bg were tererist sneaking into our country ...

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Thread: Bad-Cop shoots at truck tires, kills illegals

  1. #76
    Member Array Miamieddie's Avatar
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    For all those who disagree with the leo's action here, would your thoughts be defferant if these fleeing bg were tererist sneaking into our country with bombs to carry out another bombing attack ??? I know one thing ive had it with the whole world hating on our nation (USA)...if we dont stand firm and act firm, we will keep getting hit, it wont be the last, our foriegn enemies take avantage of us because of our leaniant laws... Eddie...imo.

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  3. #77
    Ex Member Array CaveJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    "The Law" was not trying to murder anyone in this specific case, and it was instigated by the running from the law. Wether or not you think what happened in this case was legal or right, the statement in question here stands. Don't be running from the law, is a pretty good rule to live by. Don't run, and they won't have to try to prevent you from running.
    It's called a joke...

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Want to "invade" a country? Then you should expect to be stopped, even if your actions require more-effective means to ensure stoppage. Don't want that? Then, don't do that.

    Pretty simple, actually.
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  5. #79
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I don't deny that. What I question was whether or not he was operating within the law and or policy of his agency.

    Michael
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    So if a higher up told them to break the law, that would be OK?

    I want to know what justified the shooting in terms of the law; not in terms of "illegals" as that was an unknown at the moment. Not in terms of fleeing; plenty of idiots engaged in minor misdemeanors will flee.

    The law specifies when lethal force may be used, and I want to know (if anyone has it or knows it please post) which TX
    law allows what was done? And forget the BP stuff and the crossing issue, they are side issues. The shooting was done by TX DPS inside TX and it is TX law on the use of lethal force which must have been followed, even if a supervisor authorized the shooting.
    As far as law on the subject we have from Texas Penal Code 9.51 covering the use of force for arrest and search. Just throwing the relevant part in here.
    (c) A peace officer is justified in using deadly force against another when and to the degree the peace officer reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary to make an arrest, or to prevent escape after arrest, if the use of force would have been justified under Subsection (a) and:

    (1) the actor reasonably believes the conduct for which arrest is authorized included the use or attempted use of deadly force; or

    (2) the actor reasonably believes there is a substantial risk that the person to be arrested will cause death or serious bodily injury to the actor or another if the arrest is delayed.
    So a big part of the question here is where was the truck heading and is it reasonable to believe that if not stopped it would end up colliding with innocents.

    In case there is a qustion about subsection (a) I am throwing that in.
    (a) A peace officer, or a person acting in a peace officer's presence and at his direction, is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to make or assist in making an arrest or search, or to prevent or assist in preventing escape after arrest, if:

    (1) the actor reasonably believes the arrest or search is lawful or, if the arrest or search is made under a warrant, he reasonably believes the warrant is valid; and

    (2) before using force, the actor manifests his purpose to arrest or search and identifies himself as a peace officer or as one acting at a peace officer's direction, unless he reasonably believes his purpose and identity are already known by or cannot reasonably be made known to the person to be arrested.
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  6. #80
    Ex Member Array CaveJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Want to "invade" a country? Then you should expect to be stopped, even if your actions require more-effective means to ensure stoppage. Don't want that? Then, don't do that.

    Pretty simple, actually.
    Invade is a good word.

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    @MCP-- All very well except that the folks who were killed were unknown to the officers; therefore
    NOT--being arrested.

    Whether or not lethal force was justified against the driver of the truck turns on more than,
    "where was the truck heading and is it reasonable to believe that if not stopped it would end up colliding with innocents."

    My bottom line here is that TX made the right move by turning this over to The Feds
    for additional investigation.
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  8. #82
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    I fail to see the bad?


    I see unfortunate, but not bad.

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    Quote Originally Posted by linuss View Post
    I fail to see the bad?


    I see unfortunate, but not bad.
    The bad is explained in the original story thusly--

    "An expert on police chases said the decision to fire on the truck was "a reckless act" that served "no legitimate law enforcement purpose."

    "In 25 years following police pursuits, I hadn't seen a situation where an officer shot a speeding vehicle from a helicopter," said Geoffrey Alpert, professor of criminology at the University of South Carolina. Such action would be reasonable only if "you know for sure the person driving the car deserves to die and that there are no other occupants."

    In general, he said, law enforcement agencies allow the use of deadly force only when the car is being used as a weapon, not "just on a hunch," Alpert added."

    Bad-Cop shoots at truck tires, kills illegals
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    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  10. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The bad is explained in the original story thusly--

    "An expert on police chases said the decision to fire on the truck was "a reckless act" that served "no legitimate law enforcement purpose."

    "In 25 years following police pursuits, I hadn't seen a situation where an officer shot a speeding vehicle from a helicopter," said Geoffrey Alpert, professor of criminology at the University of South Carolina. Such action would be reasonable only if "you know for sure the person driving the car deserves to die and that there are no other occupants."

    In general, he said, law enforcement agencies allow the use of deadly force only when the car is being used as a weapon, not "just on a hunch," Alpert added."

    Bad-Cop shoots at truck tires, kills illegals
    They were illegals though, so I guess they asked for death by helicopter. Know what I'm sayin'?!

  11. #85
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    Did the expert have knowledge, or dealings with, border situations where we have vast tracts of land that can't be easily gotten to be LEOs at times?

    There are many experts, that are not really experts on the specific situation on hand. I can name many examples of other professions that are filled with experts in different areas of their profession if you need me to.

    This is more of a military situation being forced upon LEOs. Not a traditional chase situation.

  12. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miamieddie View Post
    For all those who disagree with the leo's action here, would your thoughts be defferant if these fleeing bg were tererist sneaking into our country with bombs to carry out another bombing attack ??? I know one thing ive had it with the whole world hating on our nation (USA)...if we dont stand firm and act firm, we will keep getting hit, it wont be the last, our foriegn enemies take avantage of us because of our leaniant laws... Eddie...imo.
    Yes, my thoughts would be defferant. Last night, a drunk driver mowed down a college girl in my town. It's sad! I'm a bit upset! But, to be honest, if he'd mowed down a tererist with a bomb, I'd not be nearly as upset.
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    Quote Originally Posted by SFury View Post
    Did the expert have knowledge, or dealings with, border situations where we have vast tracts of land that can't be easily gotten to be LEOs at times?

    There are many experts, that are not really experts on the specific situation on hand. I can name many examples of other professions that are filled with experts in different areas of their profession if you need me to.

    This is more of a military situation being forced upon LEOs. Not a traditional chase situation.
    That is a scary thought. A truck fleeing a LEO is in your eyes a "military situation" just because of where it was? There are parts of I95 and other parts of the country not near Mexico that are "known drug routes". So, a truck fleeing a cop on I95 at night now turns into the need for a military response?
    I am sorry and no disrespect but that is ludicrous. Explain t me how it is a military situation? Inside our borders (LE), suspected druge runner inside our borders (LE), suspected anything inside our borders (LE), appareently no immenint danger to innocent civilians. Not suspected terrorists thugh that woould not matter since it is inside our borders.
    Yup, I guess for Jaywalking we will have to call in CAG and DEVGRU next.
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  14. #88
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I am curious if the "expert" quoted in the article has qualified as an expert witness in any court.
    I am fairly sure he has not in Texas as he does not seem to be familiar with Texas law.
    Hopyard, as the officers as you say were not aware of the occupants in the bed of the truck their presence can not be a factor in determining if the use of force was justified. The officer had to base his decision on the information he had at the time. As stated the intent of the shots was to disable the vehicle, not to kill or wound any of the occupants.

    From a moral/ethical perspective is this any different from the same number of people killed if an officer did a PIT manuver on the truck and concealed victims were ejected and killed? If so, why?
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  15. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    I am curious if the "expert" quoted in the article has qualified as an expert witness in any court.
    I am fairly sure he has not in Texas as he does not seem to be familiar with Texas law.
    Hopyard, as the officers as you say were not aware of the occupants in the bed of the truck their presence can not be a factor in determining if the use of force was justified. The officer had to base his decision on the information he had at the time. As stated the intent of the shots was to disable the vehicle, not to kill or wound any of the occupants.

    From a moral/ethical perspective is this any different from the same number of people killed if an officer did a PIT manuver on the truck and concealed victims were ejected and killed? If so, why?
    It is not, but pit maneuvers are also use of lethal force. There have been several suits won
    by both passengers and drivers who were severely injured or killed when a pit maneuver was not
    fully justified.

    Also, there is (I think) more control of a situation in a pit maneuver than shooting from a helicopter.
    There is a huge difference in the degree of recklessness involved.

    Someone tell me, if the driver needed to be stopped by lethal force, why was that not used
    by the ranger initially? What did the driver do that constituted a felony covered by the use of lethal
    force statutes? For all the guys on the ground and in the copter knew, the driver could have had an empty bed,
    and been out in the desert for the fun of driving on the sand. Misdemeanor maybe.
    And plenty of people run from the cops without cause, just because. Maybe they do deserve
    the death penalty for such brass, but I don't think that is what our law allows.

    Anyway, my immediate point was not to place blame. It was to applaud TX for turning this over
    for investigation by others instead of giving the appearance of sweeping the thing under the rug.
    It was a wise choice. Let's see what The Feds do with it.
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  16. #90
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rocky View Post
    Not many details on why the truck was shot at. Could be it was headed toward a interstate or other populated area and others could be involved in an accident. Illegals breaking the law rolled the dice and lost. Close the border, take a hard line on those who sneak in and this sort of thing may not happen.
    Could it also be that terrorists with dirty bombs may be trying to make it into a populated area. Personally, I say get the officer a 50cal & a few 1000 rounds!

    If enough illegals (aka- CRIMINALS) get their butts shot off, illegals (aka- CRIMINALS) may think twice!

    -
    Miamieddie likes this.

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