Bank owner celebrated for "catching the bad guy" - not sure how I feel about it

This is a discussion on Bank owner celebrated for "catching the bad guy" - not sure how I feel about it within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by LaraCroft10 Woooow!! I'm glad I brought up the discussion because I personally learned something about my state's law and enjoyed seeing the ...

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Thread: Bank owner celebrated for "catching the bad guy" - not sure how I feel about it

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaraCroft10 View Post
    Woooow!!

    I'm glad I brought up the discussion because I personally learned something about my state's law and enjoyed seeing the different views.

    But....I say we all drop this thread now and kick back a beer!
    I would join you in the symbolic beer, but I become contrary when I drink alcoholic beverages.
    "When you have to shoot, shoot, don't talk."
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  3. #152
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by boatload View Post
    So many Rambos. So little time.
    The fictional character "Rambo" shot 'em up at the drop of a hat. This guy used discretion. For that matter, so did Rambo, though facing entirely different levels of threat.

    It is what it is. Not for everyone. Not advisable for most. Not even tolerated by many LE departments, let alone understood by many folks as sane or rational. But like it or not, it IS within the purview and discretion of responsible, upstanding citizens in enlightened states where stopping fleeing violent felons is acknowledged as a good thing.
    Bill MO likes this.
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  4. #153
    Distinguished Member Array Burns's Avatar
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    May as well throw my opinion in here with the others.

    Luckily it all did work out in the end and nobody was injured. I don't agree with his decisions however, I believe what a responsible gun owner would have done would be to lock the doors after the BG left and make sure everybody was safe until the police arrived. Most businesses, especially banks, have insurance to help in situations like these so that people don't have to risk their lives to save the companies money.
    Those who make peaceful revolution impossible will make violent revolution inevitable- JFK

  5. #154
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burns View Post
    May as well throw my opinion in here with the others.

    Luckily it all did work out in the end and nobody was injured. I don't agree with his decisions however, I believe what a responsible gun owner would have done would be to lock the doors after the BG left and make sure everybody was safe until the police arrived. Most businesses, especially banks, have insurance to help in situations like these so that people don't have to risk their lives to save the companies money.
    That's what most people nowdays would do, but does it make it the right thing to do? Let someone else do the work and take the risk, I'm safe and it doesn't cost me anything. Someone else will pay for the loss and I am safe.

    That is all good until someone makes you unsafe, and kills you, that could have been stopped by someone in the past, but that guy played it safe and besides it didn't cost him anything. There is a saying from the past of "pay me now or pay me later" and I see it being true in most things in life. Does not matter if you know you pay or not you pay in most cases someway or the other you pay.

    In the case of the banks money being covered, the bank pays a cost for that insurance and like all insurance it is higher because of all the losses that happen because no one wants to save the banks money. Therefore the bank charges you more for doing business with the bank every time you walk in. So there is a cost for the loss of that money.

    But we are brainwashed to believe that the government or someone else will take care of us and we don't have to save and do for ourselves. This Country was founded by people who did not ask anyone else to do for them they took care of whatever come up.

    Just look at the east coast lots of those people all thought the Government will take care of me, the Government is prepared for such things as this. Now they are finding out they are on their own because the Government can't take care of its self let alone all the people.

    Guys when it comes down to it there is only one person who cares if you live or die and that is you. Why? Because when it comes time to look death in the face I and everyone else is only thinking about ME. Very few will put even those who they say they love before themselves. There are those who will and then there's those who say they will but few have faced the piper and can say I did.

    OK, this old man will get off his soap box and stop bitching about how he see and don't like the ways of the world and country now days. Hope some of what I typed make sense it's just things that are rolling around in my head.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  6. #155
    Ex Member Array CaveJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    That's what most people nowdays would do, but does it make it the right thing to do? Let someone else do the work and take the risk, I'm safe and it doesn't cost me anything. Someone else will pay for the loss and I am safe.

    That is all good until someone makes you unsafe, and kills you, that could have been stopped by someone in the past, but that guy played it safe and besides it didn't cost him anything. There is a saying from the past of "pay me now or pay me later" and I see it being true in most things in life. Does not matter if you know you pay or not you pay in most cases someway or the other you pay.

    In the case of the banks money being covered, the bank pays a cost for that insurance and like all insurance it is higher because of all the losses that happen because no one wants to save the banks money. Therefore the bank charges you more for doing business with the bank every time you walk in. So there is a cost for the loss of that money.

    But we are brainwashed to believe that the government or someone else will take care of us and we don't have to save and do for ourselves. This Country was founded by people who did not ask anyone else to do for them they took care of whatever come up.

    Just look at the east coast lots of those people all thought the Government will take care of me, the Government is prepared for such things as this. Now they are finding out they are on their own because the Government can't take care of its self let alone all the people.

    Guys when it comes down to it there is only one person who cares if you live or die and that is you. Why? Because when it comes time to look death in the face I and everyone else is only thinking about ME. Very few will put even those who they say they love before themselves. There are those who will and then there's those who say they will but few have faced the piper and can say I did.

    OK, this old man will get off his soap box and stop bitching about how he see and don't like the ways of the world and country now days. Hope some of what I typed make sense it's just things that are rolling around in my head.
    It wasn't really ever that much different, were people not waiting in lines for bread during the great depression?

    The point is, putting your life at risk for money is insane. Why? Would you think it was okay for a relative to get shot so he could try and retrieve his wallet? If the bank manager had come out of the back and the guy had a weapon and was threatening his employees, and he drew and shot him/got him to lay down, that's 100% fine. The guy had left, and he pursued over...money.

    I get the general point, and it makes sense if someone is in danger but for money? No way. Of course insurance costs will eventually go up, they always do, but does that mean just never ever use them? That doesn't seem like a good plan either.

  7. #156
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Cave, it is no big deal but from what I've seen you post and how I take your posts, if I was a betting man I'd bet you tend to lean to the Left. While I tend to lean to the Right.
    OD* likes this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  8. #157
    Member Array GunTrooper's Avatar
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    I guess the bottom line is: would the bank president have shot the bad guy if the bad guy had just ignored him and continued his getaway? If so, then he would have been indicted for manslaughter because he has no grounds for using lethal force to protect property. If the answer is no, then he was brandishing his gun as a threat, in order to achieve a desired effect, which is exactly what licensed carriers are NOT permitted to do.

    I think he was playing cop, (and no one gains police powers or obligations by being a licensed CCW) and luckily for him the bad-guy did not call his bluff.

  9. #158
    Ex Member Array CaveJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Cave, it is no big deal but from what I've seen you post and how I take your posts, if I was a betting man I'd bet you tend to lean to the Left. While I tend to lean to the Right.
    What do my political beliefs have to do with anything? It's 100% irrelevant to this discussion.

    What you seem to be saying is lethal force or the threat of lethal force is okay to protect or retrieve money. The reason we have a police force, is because if everyone ran around solving crimes themselves it'd be chaos. I personally don't need the police, but they exist to maintain order.

    Had the manager been defending someone's life, fine. He wasn't, the threat was gone and he was just going after him because he had money.

  10. #159
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    Political belief has nothing to do with this topic but I do find that when you have two people one being left leaning and one right it is hard to get agreement on many other things not just on political beliefs.

    What you and others keep coming back to is he acted all with intent of lethal force to protect or retrieve money. But you forget that this happened in MO where law as posted by nedrgr21 states these facts.


    Posted by:
    nedrgr21]Tac and Lara, I think ya'll (yup, I did it) need to go down a little farther:
    Private person's use of force in making an arrest.
    563.051. 2. A private person acting on his own account may, subject to the limitations of subsection 3, use physical force to effect arrest or prevent escape only when and to the extent such is immediately necessary to effect the arrest, or to prevent escape from custody, of a person whom he reasonably believes to have committed a crime and who in fact has committed such crime.

    3. A private person in effecting an arrest or in preventing escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only ...
    (3) When he reasonably believes such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest of a person who at that time and in his presence
    (a) Committed or attempted to commit a class A felony or murder; or
    (b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon. ...

    Bank robbery is a Class A felony in MO, and the manager reasonably believed he had a gun.

    Tac, thanks for bringing up this statute - I couldn't remember where this info was.
    So his act was not for money but he was stopping a felony, (by his actions in the bank) who he thought and believed to be armed from leaving. (see 3 a and b in bold) So deadly force could have been used and would have been legal to do so.

    As to the things he said after it was all over. We all know, or should know, that after a situation such as this it is best to keep ones mouth shut except for the facts pertaining to the situation.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  11. #160
    Ex Member Array CaveJohnson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill MO View Post
    Political belief has nothing to do with this topic but I do find that when you have two people one being left leaning and one right it is hard to get agreement on many other things not just on political beliefs.

    What you and others keep coming back to is he acted all with intent of lethal force to protect or retrieve money. But you forget that this happened in MO where law as posted by nedrgr21 states these facts.




    So his act was not for money but he was stopping a felony, (by his actions in the bank) who he thought and believed to be armed from leaving. (see 3 a and b in bold) So deadly force could have been used and would have been legal to do so.

    As to the things he said after it was all over. We all know, or should know, that after a situation such as this it is best to keep ones mouth shut except for the facts pertaining to the situation.
    That's a closed minded way of thinking, that type of thinking would make it harder to agree than any political beliefs and for the record mine are from all over the place. Left, right, up and down.

    Once again, opinion, not the law. I'm not talking about the law.

    I can't keep repeating myself, it's giving me a headache. I keep saying the same exact thing to different people.

    Bottom line: Opinion, I don't think it's a smart move to pursue someone over money. No one was still being threatened at the point, and he got lucky he wasn't met with gunfire. That's all folks.

  12. #161
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    No where in the thread, I don't think, have I said I would or would not have done what he did. But I can not say he was wrong for doing what he did when the law says he has the right to do what he did. This is a situation where we would all have to make a choice at the time of it happening and most likely would be a different choice each time it did or would happen.

    Your opinion or my opinion has nothing to do with it being right or wrong in what he did only thing our opinion is for is us. Each and everyone of us has to make that choice, we then hope it to be the right one.

    I see his, being right as he stopped a BG and he is now in jail and all went home safe. And that is all we can hope for each and everyday.
    ccw9mm and Miamieddie like this.
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  13. #162
    Distinguished Member Array Bill MO's Avatar
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    I've enjoyed the discussion, but it's my bedtime see ya all in the morning
    It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45

    "Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes

  14. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunTrooper View Post
    I guess the bottom line is: would the bank president have shot the bad guy if the bad guy had just ignored him and continued his getaway?
    The bottom line is, he stopped a fleeing violent felon whom he had personally witnessed just threatening the lives of others in a felony armed robbery. (Sux to be him that he turned out to be a liar as well, ultimately unarmed.)

    If the answer is no, then he was brandishing his gun as a threat, in order to achieve a desired effect, which is exactly what licensed carriers are NOT permitted to do.
    Brandishing is unjustifiably displaying in a threatening manner. In this case, stopping the felon was a justifiable act.

    Correct, though, nobody has any right to brandish with intent to unjustifiably intimidate or menace others.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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  15. #164
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    All i know is most people see it my way, people out in the real world i mean , including media, hes a hero , people are tiref of these thugs doing what they want and getting slapped on the rist for a couple of days and released going back out and doing it agai. What they do best rob and steal peoples hard eared living, yea sure its material, just money, i'll work for it another 5years and get it back if they rob me again ,ill work again another 5 years and get it back.... Whatev... Im putting my foot down material and money means alot to me cause im not rich, and if i were im not alowing any one to abuse me nor my love ones anymore im not working anymore to keep supplying thugs , im working for myself and love ones ... im tired im standing up like a man if YOU have no problems with thugs and love them so much to protect there rights and doing thats your problem not mine. Bg wanna threaten my life and family im going to stop them with what ever leagal force i need im a man and will keep being a man, call me rambo, wanna be cop , vigalante, i donr care most of the world will see me as a hero , and my familys alive and myself .... The rest of you can curl up in a feadal position and hide , and hope that some one else will come to ur rescue...keep believing the law cares about you ... know one cares about you but you period..... Eddie

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