Bank owner celebrated for "catching the bad guy" - not sure how I feel about it - Page 4

Bank owner celebrated for "catching the bad guy" - not sure how I feel about it

This is a discussion on Bank owner celebrated for "catching the bad guy" - not sure how I feel about it within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Jeanlouise I don't doubt that is true. I'm open to hearing them. You have already heard many of them, both here and ...

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Thread: Bank owner celebrated for "catching the bad guy" - not sure how I feel about it

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    I don't doubt that is true. I'm open to hearing them.
    You have already heard many of them, both here and on the original link.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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  2. #47
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    Not sure I'm on the fence about this at all.

    Without the presence of an actual, unavoidable, and certain physical threat, getting involved like this is risky. This could have turned out several different ways. What if the BG had a friend in another car with a weapon ready to assist in the getaway? A scenario like that presents all kinds of bad variables from who is good and who is bad to which one was actually the get away car? The BG's assitant could start shooting, then when the cops show up claim he was trying to help the bank dude, who got out of the way when the bullets started flying. Then everyone gets away, and we double the potential for an innocent to get hurt.

    I will flatly stand by my opinion on this. It is my opinion and it is different than others, but I stand by it: this was not the way to handle this situation.
    CaveJohnson and Jeanlouise like this.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  3. #48
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    Ok after reading and reading again and then looking up definitions this is what I think they are saying.

    The actor was attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of a forcible felony.
    If the person, there are using the word actor, is involved in committing a felony he is not authorized to use deadly force. Ya think?

    The actor was the initial aggressor; except that in such case his or her use of force is nevertheless justifiable provided:
    Not sure anybody reading this different?
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike1956 View Post
    You have already heard many of them, both here and on the original link.
    Ok, is there a point to that comment? I'm one of many posters in this thread.
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  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Ok after reading and reading again and then looking up definitions this is what I think they are saying.



    If the person, there are using the word actor, is involved in committing a felony he is not authorized to use deadly force. Ya think?

    Not sure anybody reading this different?
    I think that is a very confusing and poorly written law. Twisting the language does not help anyone. To the average citizen reading that you could legitimately argue either way. I've never heard the word "actor" in legislation before but I admit I'm not a Lawyer so maybe it's commom in some locals. (like California )
    tacman605 likes this.
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  6. #51
    MJK
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    If I had been in the bank and threatened by an individual who expressed intent to commit harm, had the capability to inflict serious or fatal damage, and was in close proximity, then I would respond accordingly if an opportunity presented itself. After the threat has passed I am neither legally nor morally bound to pursue the BG. That's where highly trained LEO's come in to do their job.

    Just my $0.02.
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  7. #52
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    Once the police have been called there is one big reason not to be rushing out with guns drawn.

    Had police response been along the line of a matter of seconds and they'd arrived just in time to see a gunman bolting from the bank then what is their correct response?

    If LEO arriving on the scene lit the the angry manager up like a cheap cigar when he didn't respond to their orders to drop his weapon and assume the position it'd have been a righteous shoot
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  8. #53
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    I agree with you MJK, but once the guy got out of the bank, into his car, and was on the way down the street with the police already enroute, I believe it's a different story.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaraCroft10 View Post
    So it's actually under the reasons he CANNOT use physical force.
    That's not what it means. To read this as "you can't use force if the other person is committing a felony" is absurd and should be a tip off that it means something else. Here it is again for reference:

    A person may [...] use physical force upon another person when and to the extent he or she reasonably believes such force to be necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person from what he or she reasonably believes to be the use or imminent use of unlawful force by such other person, UNLESS:
    [...]
    (3) The actor was attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of a forcible felony.
    The "actor" in (3) is the "person" referred to in the prior paragraph. So it's saying a person can use physical force UNLESS he or she is committing a felony.

    Personally I have no problem with what the banker did. It was legal and it was gutsy and had a good outcome. It was good that he had his co-worker as backup; if it makes sense for LEO to do this, then it make sense for a citizen's arrest. That is prudence, not a "power trip". And to say the "guy has been itching to play Cop forever and seized the chance to do so" is inappropriate since you do not know his motivations.
    Last edited by Ransom; November 1st, 2012 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Tweaked

  10. #55
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post


    The "actor" in (3) is the "person" referred to in the prior paragraph. So it's saying a person can use physical force UNLESS he or she is committing a felony.

    This still makes it a vague and poorly written law.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  11. #56
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    I thinks he did everything right. He knew to wait til he got outside where there is less likely of hitting someone. Rather than some John Wayne wanna be firing first without thinking. If this did happen more often criminals might think twice.

  12. #57
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    I initially saw the story on local news (I live about 30 miles from Troy, MO.)

    I was apprehensive to post about it because I am conflicted on it. I did speak with a local LEO friend about the case & we agree that there is a lot going on here to generate potential consequences.

    1) The BG was in the act of fleeing from robbing a bank.
    2) He put people in danger.
    3) The CCW holder was acting within the law. That is partially evidenced by the fact that he is not in jail and is being praised by LEOs.
    4) The CCW Holder acted emotionally.
    5) The CCW Holder is NOT an LEO.

    Would I have done the same thing... I do not know. I am not a fan of hypothetical situations. We can all armchair QB anything, but when the SHTF, can we act the way we talked? How can we really know until in the moment?

    I do support him in what he did knowing that nobody got hurt in the act, but I have to wonder if my opinion would be different if it went down differently.

    At the end of the day, a BG is off the street, nobody is hurt, and CCW is being credited with a peaceful resolution to a bad situation.
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  13. #58
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    Seems like a lot of folks are of the opinion that armed robbery is not a violent crime. It is. I have been robbed at gun point. I am glad that he apprehended the robber. Sure, things could have turned out bad but he seemed like he was doing everything he could to control the outcome. Police officers cannot protects us. They cannot be everywhere at once. As for as him following the robber out of the bank before confronting him that seems like the right way to handle the situation as to not endanger folks in the bank. I might just send him a bullet. My hats is off to him.
    Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around laws. Plato

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevew View Post
    Seems like a lot of folks are of the opinion that armed robbery is not a violent crime. It is. I have been robbed at gun point. I am glad that he apprehended the robber. Sure, things could have turned out bad but he seemed like he was doing everything he could to control the outcome. Police officers cannot protects us. They cannot be everywhere at once. As for as him following the robber out of the bank before confronting him that seems like the right way to handle the situation as to not endanger folks in the bank. I might just sent him a bullet. My hats is off to him.
    Let us look at it critically from a AAR point of view OK. He did not "do everything he could to control the outcome".
    1. He left the safety of a building after the danger had left
    2. He was alone and did not know if there were other BG's around.
    3. The first run of the article said he went after him because he was "mad", not for some higher civic duty
    4. He thought he man was acting odd (on drugs). And he thought he could take him anyway becasue he was a black belt. Black belts do not stop bullets and do not sometimes help with folks on certain drugs. Besides, quite honestly, a black belt, depending on how much yu train, your focus, is highly over rated in the news.
    5. Back to number 4: what have we said a million times onthis forum about not underestimating the size of your opponent?

    In summary: He left his bank, alone, mad, not knowing what lie in wait for him,....how on earth is that doing everything you can to control an outcome.....it is everything you do to NOT control an outcome.

    Look, I am looking at this like an AAR. Even after a succesful operation in the military, whether it is going to the field or capturing an HVT, you congratulate each other then do an AAR so you do not kid yourself. Everything in life is a learning moment. Let us learn from this instead of using the litmus test of "well, it worked out didn't it?" . We all know how easy this could not have "turned out so well"
    tacman605 likes this.
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  15. #60
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    Easy to say what you'd do as you sip your coffee and type away... I've never been in that situation, and will try not to pass judgement. Bad guy caught, good guy is safe, sounds like a positive ending to me.

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