Bank owner celebrated for "catching the bad guy" - not sure how I feel about it - Page 5

Bank owner celebrated for "catching the bad guy" - not sure how I feel about it

This is a discussion on Bank owner celebrated for "catching the bad guy" - not sure how I feel about it within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by LaraCroft10 Ah, but I think you missed a very key word. Let's go back and read it again. So it's actually under ...

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Thread: Bank owner celebrated for "catching the bad guy" - not sure how I feel about it

  1. #61
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LaraCroft10 View Post
    Ah, but I think you missed a very key word. Let's go back and read it again.



    So it's actually under the reasons he CANNOT use physical force.
    Actually, no. The "actor" in this case was the bank manager who drew the gun, and he was not "attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of a forcable felony." The guy he was stopping was the one "escaping after a forcable felony."

    That said, I still think civillians should not be drawing down on people because they are angry, which is what the bank manager said he did. Defending one's self against death or grevious physical injury is one thing. Going after escaping criminals that aren't a threat like an avenging angel is quite another and is going to end badly sooner or later for reasons already stated in earlier posts.

    Fitch
    onacoma likes this.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety), by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” by H. L. Mencken


  2. #62
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    I think that is a very confusing and poorly written law. Twisting the language does not help anyone. To the average citizen reading that you could legitimately argue either way. I've never heard the word "actor" in legislation before but I admit I'm not a Lawyer so maybe it's commom in some locals. (like California )
    The "Actor" for the purposes of the law, is the person who's actions are being discussed at the moment. The bank manager and the robber are both "Actors", but since their their actions are different applying the law results in different answers to the question, "Was what they did legal?" In the bank managers case the answer is, "yes." In the robbers case the answer is, "No."

    The bank manager as an "Actor" has not done, and is not doing, any of the things listed when he uses deadly force to stop the robber. So while I think his actions were incredibly ill advised, they were not illegal.

    The robber as an "Actor" has done and is doing the things listed so he is not legally able to use deadly force. He might anyway, he did when he committed the robbery, but this law says what he did was illegal and would be among the reasons listed as the basis for prosecution.

    Fitch
    Jeanlouise likes this.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety), by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” by H. L. Mencken

  3. #63
    Member Array Aimless's Avatar
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    If you have the ability to stop a crime,shouldn't you?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    Easy to say what you'd do as you sip your coffee and type away... I've never been in that situation, and will try not to pass judgement. Bad guy caught, good guy is safe, sounds like a positive ending to me.
    I am having a sports drink and there is a difference between passing judgement and using a real life situation as a learning tool. It should be a learning tool for those folks that think the guy was wrong to go out after the BG and it should be a learniing tool for folks that would elect to go out after a BG.
    LaraCroft10 likes this.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

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  5. #65
    Senior Member Array DaGunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aimless View Post
    If you have the ability to stop a crime,shouldn't you?
    Unfortunately, the answer is: "It Depends." Here in North Carolina, there is no "citizen's arrest." It is also against the law to pursue and detain a criminal. We are allowed to subdue a criminal while he/she is in the act of commiting a crime, but once the BG turns to withdraw from the conflict, we cannot take any action to stop them. Had this happened in NC, the bank manager would have committed a felony.
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  6. #66
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    Sounds like the bank manager took a bit of risk pursuing and apprehending the bank robber. It could have ended differently, luckily it didn't. Another course of action he could have taken was follow at a distance and report/update 911 with robbers location, plate # ect. After the fact it sounds as if he was still feeling the adrenaline while being interviewed.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


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  7. #67
    Member Array Ransom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaGunny View Post
    Unfortunately, the answer is: "It Depends." Here in North Carolina, there is no "citizen's arrest."
    Say it ain't so! I remember Gomer Pyle, a citizen of Mayberry (NC), declaring "Citizen's arrest! Citizen's arrest!" on the Andy Griffith Show. Citizens Arrest - YouTube

  8. #68
    VIP Member Array Stevew's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Let us look at it critically from a AAR point of view OK. He did not "do everything he could to control the outcome".
    1. He left the safety of a building after the danger had left
    2. He was alone and did not know if there were other BG's around.
    3. The first run of the article said he went after him because he was "mad", not for some higher civic duty
    4. He thought he man was acting odd (on drugs). And he thought he could take him anyway becasue he was a black belt. Black belts do not stop bullets and do not sometimes help with folks on certain drugs. Besides, quite honestly, a black belt, depending on how much yu train, your focus, is highly over rated in the news.
    5. Back to number 4: what have we said a million times onthis forum about not underestimating the size of your opponent?

    In summary: He left his bank, alone, mad, not knowing what lie in wait for him,....how on earth is that doing everything you can to control an outcome.....it is everything you do to NOT control an outcome.

    Look, I am looking at this like an AAR. Even after a succesful operation in the military, whether it is going to the field or capturing an HVT, you congratulate each other then do an AAR so you do not kid yourself. Everything in life is a learning moment. Let us learn from this instead of using the litmus test of "well, it worked out didn't it?" . We all know how easy this could not have "turned out so well"
    I to am looking at it as AAR. I considered all the things mentioned in your post. I am not sure he was alone. Wasn't there another armed bank employee assisting him?

    1. Robber gets away and ends up with a hostage.
    2. Robber gets in shoot out with LOE and gets killed or worse yet kills a LOE or bystander.
    3. Continues with his life of crime until something bad happens (and it will).
    4. Appears to me the bank manager got the upper hand on the robber which normally gives you control of the situation.
    I could go on as could you. Bottom line is there is a down side to action and inaction. He choose to take action and it ended with an acceptable outcome. I still give him BZ.
    Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around laws. Plato

  9. #69
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevew View Post
    I to am looking at it as AAR. I considered all the things mentioned in your post. He am not sure he was alone. Wasn't there another armed bank employee assisting him?

    1. Robber gets away and ends up with a hostage.
    2. Robber gets in shoot out with LOE and gets killed or worse yet kills a LOE or bystander.
    3. Continues with his life of crime until something bad happens (and it will).
    4. Appears to me the bank manager got the upper hand on the robber which normally gives you control of the situation.
    I could go on as could you. Bottom line is there is a down side to action and inaction. He choose to take action and it ended with an acceptable outcome. I still give him BZ.
    Boy, totally twisting around the point of an AAR. I was discussing the actions of the bank manager, not what if's. Don;t you get that part. After any operation you discuss the good and the bad. I was bringing up points that would be brought up in any military encounter whether the encounter was favorable or not. It is not heresy to bring up intelligent points.

    And as far as not being alone...he THOUGHT he was. The other guy came out after. So that was not in mind. Things did turn out OK for him. But he did not do everything that I would say could not have been done better or not at all.

    BTW: Respectfully, if you can not find a problem with the encounter sir then you have no idea how to do a critical AAR.

    Also: your statements are end results...not what could have been better which is the point of an AAR
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

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  10. #70
    Distinguished Member Array Fitch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 357and40 View Post
    At the end of the day, a BG is off the street, nobody is hurt, and CCW is being credited with a peaceful resolution to a bad situation.
    Right up until the Challenger blew up, NASA said after every mission when they found burns on the seals, "At the end of the mission, the shuttle is back, the crew are safe, and the fact that the seals that weren't supposed to burn at all only burned part way through, was ok."

    I agree, all articles in the news about the use of firearms by anybody should be viewed as an After Action Report (AAR). On that basis, I think the bank manager's action was extremely ill advised. He got away with it. It isn't something one will get away with every time.

    As one other poster pointed out, he was very lucky the well known extremely hair trigger lethal threat in the form of jacked up LEO's didn't arrive on the scene and put 40 rounds in him for having something in his hand running out of the bank. I don't even have to try very hard to imagine all the posts that would be on here saying how it was the Bank Managers fault, not the LEO's fault, he was lying there shot to bits, and I'd have to agree with them.

    And that's just one risk among many he didn't have a clue he was taking. What did he accomplish that was worth the risk he took?

    My answer to that is "nothing."

    That said, I've found this to be an incredibly informative thread. I really enjoy all the discussion on both sides of the issue.

    Fitch
    Last edited by Fitch; November 1st, 2012 at 01:35 PM.
    “The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety), by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.” by H. L. Mencken

  11. #71
    VIP Member Array nedrgr21's Avatar
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    Tac and Lara, I think ya'll (yup, I did it) need to go down a little farther:
    Private person's use of force in making an arrest.
    563.051. 2. A private person acting on his own account may, subject to the limitations of subsection 3, use physical force to effect arrest or prevent escape only when and to the extent such is immediately necessary to effect the arrest, or to prevent escape from custody, of a person whom he reasonably believes to have committed a crime and who in fact has committed such crime.

    3. A private person in effecting an arrest or in preventing escape from custody is justified in using deadly force only ...
    (3) When he reasonably believes such use of deadly force is immediately necessary to effect the arrest of a person who at that time and in his presence
    (a) Committed or attempted to commit a class A felony or murder; or
    (b) Is attempting to escape by use of a deadly weapon. ...

    Bank robbery is a Class A felony in MO, and the manager reasonably believed he had a gun.

    Tac, thanks for bringing up this statute - I couldn't remember where this info was.

  12. #72
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    I'm not sure how this will play out in a court of law but in the court of right and wrong... I give him 2 thumbs up!

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stevew View Post
    Seems like a lot of folks are of the opinion that armed robbery is not a violent crime. It is. I have been robbed at gun point. I am glad that he apprehended the robber.

    Sure, things could have turned out bad but he seemed like he was doing everything he could to control the outcome. Police officers cannot protects us. They cannot be everywhere at once.
    Yup.

    And the simple fact is, we're still citizens in the USA, not subjects. Given the current political climate and attitudes of many, such action is often taken as vigilantism. But a citizen has every right to protect life and limb in dire circumstances. According to the statutes, it generally comes down to "reasonableness" of the actions and the imminence (or likely continuance) of the threat. As well as (all too often, IMO) the zealotry displayed by the local DA.
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  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeanlouise View Post
    Ok, is there a point to that comment? I'm one of many posters in this thread.
    You are making it tougher than it really is. I was simply answering your question. Yes, you have an opinion. So do I. So do many others.
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  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by wdbailey View Post
    Once the police have been called there is one big reason not to be rushing out with guns drawn.

    Had police response been along the line of a matter of seconds and they'd arrived just in time to see a gunman bolting from the bank then what is their correct response?

    If LEO arriving on the scene lit the the angry manager up like a cheap cigar when he didn't respond to their orders to drop his weapon and assume the position it'd have been a righteous shoot
    It sounds as though local law enforcement is personally familiar with the manager, thus diminishing the likelihood of confusing him with the fellow who just robbed his bank.
    "If I had my choice I would kill every reporter in the world, but I am sure we would be getting reports from Hell before breakfast."
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