Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee - Page 10

Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee

This is a discussion on Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy Nope, not "whenever" and not in response to "any" force. Are you saying that it is never OK to draw your ...

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Thread: Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee

  1. #136
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Nope, not "whenever" and not in response to "any" force. Are you saying that it is never OK to draw your weapon whenever there is any force against you? You and I both know that there are no absolutes here. Unholstering a firearm is an available option if I am under attack. I m not say that I would unholster my weapon in this instance...I wasn't there...I didn't experience what the victim experienced and there isn't enough information in the articles for me to come to a definitive conclusion as to how I would have reacted to this particular attack. We do know that in this particular instance the attack did not continue after the weapon was unholstered and we know no one else got hurt after the weapon was unholstered.

    Would this be a better response for you:
    This Out-of-Control Black Friday Brawl Started Over Women’s Underwear at Victoria’s Secret | Video | TheBlaze.com
    I did not really need the link but thank you very much Look, I am giving my opinion on what I would considering the information we have. That is what this forum about...opinions.

    I don't give a hoot if it was "legal" for him to do. I am sick and tired of hearing a punch can kill you. It did not in this case and the CC'er seemed to not have been injured. So that negates the fact "it cold kill you" it did not. Now, is he afraid of another punch? Well, the first one did not do much.

    Look, I am not saying go mano on mano with everybody and we do not know the physical charateristics of each man. But any abled body person that feels the need to take out his gun after getting punched that did not apparently affect him is IMO wrong, legal or not.

    That is a terrible threshold or litmus test for taking out a gun which is designed to KILL someone.

    I just can not imagine myself ever taking my gun out after getting punched and that punch did not knock me silly. If someone is a normal healthy male then I suggest they get H2H training and/or deescalation training if they choose to carry a gun. This had disaster in the making and becasue it worked out does not mean it was wise.

    This brings to home another point for folks that rely on their gun as their first line of defense. What happens if this was in a posted no gun area? What would this gentleman do in the same situation? If he is not thiking about that now (if you are reading this) he needs to sit down and evaluate his defense strategy. Betcha five bucks he would have hit the dude back or deescalted.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8


  2. #137
    Member Array linuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    I am sick and tired of hearing a punch can kill you. It did not in this case and the CC'er seemed to not have been injured. So that negates the fact "it cold kill you" it did not.
    Someone slashes your arm with a knife and walks away. Could it kill you? Yes. Did it? No. Would you just stand there hoping they didn't come back for more, or would you have your hand on your gun?


    How do you know the punch didn't "knock him silly"? Maybe it did. We don't know the sizes of the two people involved. The puncher could be body-builder size and punchee a 5'6" 120lb guy.


    And you as a Texas should (hopefully) know that the only "no gun areas" have 30.06 signs up and legally posted.
    1MoreGoodGuy likes this.

  3. #138
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by linuss View Post
    Someone slashes your arm with a knife and walks away. Could it kill you? Yes. Did it? No. Would you just stand there hoping they didn't come back for more, or would you have your hand on your gun?


    How do you know the punch didn't "knock him silly"? Maybe it did. We don't know the sizes of the two people involved. The puncher could be body-builder size and punchee a 5'6" 120lb guy.


    And you as a Texas should (hopefully) know that the only "no gun areas" have 30.06 signs up and legally posted.
    You are going to shoot the guy in the back? You said he is walking away....and yes I know about the signs...did not think someone would be so petty to nit pick, next time i will use the proper statute. I was trying to save BW LOL. I will be more precise next time for ya.

    Hey, if you don't like my opinion just disagree with it, don't bring up another example. I all ready have my mind made up on this issue. Without any more facts except what we have I would say no way would I draw my weapon.

    Oh, BTW: if I was knifed in the arm there is a good chance the guy would not be walking away. That would happen at very close quarters in this situation (crowd during Black Friday) and there would be a fight. I would re assess as it went along. But I would most likely not draw my weapon because of the proximity of the BG, the inability to make space between us because of the crowd, the chance my weapon could be taken away, and the innocent bystanders.

    And yes, I am about 5'6" and yes I have taken care of myself in situations alot worse than this gentleman with taking out a gun.

    BTW: the actions I would take with the guy that knifed me is because of the totality of the situation. I do not go for my gun first unless I am in imminent danger and I do not have any other means to defend myself.

    In the RL case here I would not unholster because I would not shoot an unarmed man I know I can deal with. Don't see the need.
    9MMare likes this.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    I don't think you are going to get a whole lot more of a stampede from people seeing one rather than the other. The big stampede issue I see is if the HVAC system transports the spray to other parts of the store. You then are going to potentially be looking at stampedes from multiple points (maybe running into each other) and millions of dollars of inventory contaminated as well. Clothes that smell of OC I would not expect to sell very well. I would expect the retailers lawyers would be demanding payment.
    I take it you've never had the experience of using or getting sprayed with OC spray. Most people carry a 1/2 oz key chain size of OC spray. Most police officers carry either a 2 oz or 4 oz can of OC spray. Hosing down a crowd of 5 or 10 or even 20 people is not going to result in OC spray being sucked up in the HVAC being distributed throughout the store causing a stampede and contaminating millions of dollars of inventory even if you sprayed the contents of several 4 oz cans directly into the stores ventilation system.

    I've known a couple LEO's who have sprayed some OC spray into the air conditioner vents on another officers patrol car as a prank. The most it did was make the officer cough and their eyes water a little. It certainly didn't incapacitate them, and certainly not like getting a full blast to the face.
    suntzu, Hopyard and goldshellback like this.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #140
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I take it you've never had the experience of using or getting sprayed with OC spray. Most people carry a 1/2 oz key chain size of OC spray. Most police officers carry either a 2 oz or 4 oz can of OC spray. Hosing down a crowd of 5 or 10 or even 20 people is not going to result in OC spray being sucked up in the HVAC being distributed throughout the store causing a stampede and contaminating millions of dollars of inventory even if you sprayed the contents of several 4 oz cans directly into the stores ventilation system.

    I've known a couple LEO's who have sprayed some OC spray into the air conditioner vents on another officers patrol car as a prank. The most it did was make the officer cough and their eyes water a little. It certainly didn't incapacitate them, and certainly not like getting a full blast to the face.
    I carry a Mk4 canister at work. Different manufacturers give different performance. My old department was one of the first to learn that Alcohol based sprays, down parkas and Tasers are a bad combination. I have been sprayed, I have been in a fast food restaurant that was cleared out in about fifteen seconds when an officer had to spray someone.
    A couple of tweets from shoppers this friday.
    Black Friday 'Gang Fight' At Woodland Mall Leads To Chaos, Arrests (VIDEO)
    The whole mall is choking on pepper spray right now lol. I guess our parents were right about woodland..
    and
    Gang fight in woodland mall!! Cops tackled them and sprayed pepper spray, everyone in that wing started coughing and sneezing. #blackfriday
    From the local Fox affilliate
    Witnesses Describe Black Friday Fight at Woodland Mall | FOX17online.com
    “There was all kinds of commotion, people running one way and security chasing them. Then, all of a sudden, the motion went back the other way and pepper spray filled the air,” says Hickey.
    and
    To escape police the Hickey’s saw one of the teens run over a shopper. “We watched a girl get trampled, and she looked like she got hurt,” says Dory.

    “She was holding her wrist and stuff and the guy ran over her and she was sitting there holding her wrist, and she was crying and she got up and walked away,” says Maddie.

    Then came the pepper spray, the Hickey’s breathing it in. “It just kind of burns a little bit,” says Dory
    To cause a panic a chemical agent does not have to be present in a sufficient dose to be clinically effective. It only has to be sufficient to be recognized and for one person to freak out.

    As far as dosing the vents, been there done that. Once the carrier evaporates the delivered dose is nothing close to what you get with a full on spray.
    (have also painted underside of door handles, and urinal handles in the locker room)

    A stream dispenser would be ok but a foam would be best for this situation. A fog type spray is going to involve too many bystanders.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  6. #141
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    The thought of backing off, retreating, walking away...not sure what phrases are the least inflammatory to you gentlemen....after being punched is so offensive to most of you, just plain anathema...that almost no one in this thread considers it, much less writes it down.

    It wasnt even a 'fight' from what little we know from the media. But are egos SO fragile that it's unthinkable to people to just get away and de-escalate? (There...is that the preferable term?) Yeah, it would burn my butt too but thankfully I...and now everyone here (multiples times, lol) has had a chance to think this thru and instead of "reacting", try and do the more responsible thing if we are not truly facing a lethal threat and there are plenty of other people who could get hurt.
    Hopyard likes this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  7. #142
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post

    This brings to home another point for folks that rely on their gun as their first line of defense. What happens if this was in a posted no gun area? What would this gentleman do in the same situation? If he is not thiking about that now (if you are reading this) he needs to sit down and evaluate his defense strategy. Betcha five bucks he would have hit the dude back or deescalted.
    I asked this earlier too...what if you werent armed right then? Then how would you have handled it?
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #143
    Member Array SickMAK90's Avatar
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    Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee

    Quote Originally Posted by linuss View Post
    Someone slashes your arm with a knife and walks away. Could it kill you? Yes. Did it? No. Would you just stand there hoping they didn't come back for more, or would you have your hand on your gun?


    How do you know the punch didn't "knock him silly"? Maybe it did. We don't know the sizes of the two people involved. The puncher could be body-builder size and punchee a 5'6" 120lb guy.


    And you as a Texas should (hopefully) know that the only "no gun areas" have 30.06 signs up and legally posted.
    A guy I know was punched, knocked out, and hit head hit the concrete. He died... The punch didn't kill him, but the results of a punch can. And in some cases a punch could kill you.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by SickMAK90 View Post
    A guy I know was punched, knocked out, and hit head hit the concrete. He died... The punch didn't kill him, but the results of a punch can. And in some cases a punch could kill you.
    True enough, but once a punch is thrown it is over, unless the guy is coming back with additional combative strikes. Moreover,
    when you were punched and knocked to the ground hard enough that your head hit, you'd not very likely recover enough
    equilibrium to draw as a prevention against further blows if you sustained significant head injury. So, it would be over.

    You don't get to retaliate--- as indicated rather nicely in the other thread running where the homeowner killed two home
    invaders and is now charged with murder.
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  10. #145
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    I'm not calling 911 on this--I yelling "CHICK FIGHT" as loud as I can! It's going to be real entertaining!
    goldshellback and msgt/ret like this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  11. #146
    VIP Member Array ghost tracker's Avatar
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    Once theoretical scenarios begin to fly to justify the "this is what I would do" posts, then all original facts simply fly out the window. What if the line-cutting, punch-throwing bully...was an 85 year old nun? What if the permitted muzzle-leveling punchee...was a heavily-inked Aryan Nation Supremacist? We know relatively few of those actual details. Concealed carry doesn't (can't, won't) leverage your ability to retaliate. If anything, concealed carry actually INCREASES the PERMIT HOLDER'S responsibility to rise above ANY inclination toward retaliation. Rational thinking & a cool head are de facto requirements that society will necessarily extract from permit holders. Both on-the-scene & before a Grand Jury. And so are the higher standards to which we must necessarily subject...OURSELVES. We have no Constitutional Right to even the score.
    Hopyard likes this.
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  12. #147
    VIP Member Array 1MoreGoodGuy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I'm not calling 911 on this--I yelling "CHICK FIGHT" as loud as I can! It's going to be real entertaining!
    I take it you didn't watch the video. The fight started over underwear...it was not a "chick fight"...if I remember correctly it was three men and one of them gets kneed in the head multiple times.
    Regards,
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