Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee - Page 4

Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee

This is a discussion on Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by ntkb He pulls the gun after he is attacked, not before, if he was to use mace or pepper spray and it ...

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Thread: Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee

  1. #46
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntkb View Post
    He pulls the gun after he is attacked, not before, if he was to use mace or pepper spray and it got other people a law suit may have been pending. I disagree with you completely, several people have been killed with just one punch and also others have had severe damage done to their person, losing an eye and what not.
    It’s high time people learned to be polite in public, my guess is the next time he thinks of smacking someone he will think twice.
    I was going through the list of things that I was told were justifiable times to unholster your weapon....hmmmm, I can not find where it says "to teach someone a lesson". Can you please point out where it says that?

    Seriously....statements like that make gun owners and cc'ers look bad to other folks.

    We can disagree with the actions of the man but I will not make statements that make us look like we are there to be LEO's or society's consciience.
    Then I heard the voice of the Lord saying, “Whom shall I send? And who will go for us?”
    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    While I agree with the concept that anyone in a retail establishment on Black Friday is violating one of the three stupids rules, Texas law, I believe very narrowly interprets the stupid places rule.
    (e) A person who has a right to be present at the location where the force is used, who has not provoked the person against whom the force is used, and who is not engaged in criminal activity at the time the force is used is not required to retreat before using force as described by this section.

    (f) For purposes of Subsection (a), in determining whether an actor described by Subsection (e) reasonably believed that the use of force was necessary, a finder of fact may not consider whether the actor failed to retreat.
    So while retreat is frequently a very real and viable solution to the problem, if you are described by (e) retreat is strictly at your discretion.
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  3. #48
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    On-line shopping is starting to look beter and better, isn't it?

    I agree with the mindset that says to avoid dangerous places and situations and although normally shopping doesn't fall into this category, Black Friday is the exception. People are crazy and will trample you to save a few bucks on a phone. Its really not worth it.

    I also agree that its going to be difficult to prove to a jury that you believed your life or the lives of others were in imminent danger because you were punched in the face. I agree with the spirit of Hopyard's assessment when he says that he doesn't want to put his well being in 20/20 hindsight of others. This is definitely a situation that called for pepper spray.

    I believe its wrong for others to assault you and I believe that you should have a right to defend yourself but if you give a hint that your actions were to teach others manners, you are going to be seen in the light of a vigilante and not a good guy. The earlier comment about its not your job to teach others a lesson is spot on IMO.

  4. #49
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    Pepper spray in a crowd of people? How many would that "assault"? No shots were fired. The attack was stopped. The only injury was to the man who was assaulted. He prepared to defend himself against further attack. No one was arrested. How much better could this have turned out?
    I shoot with a pistol and a Canon. We must all hang together amigos, or we will all hang separately. NRA life member.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    While I agree with the concept that anyone in a retail establishment on Black Friday is violating one of the three stupids rules, Texas law, I believe very narrowly interprets the stupid places rule.

    So while retreat is frequently a very real and viable solution to the problem, if you are described by (e) retreat is strictly at your discretion.
    Falstaff:
    To die is to be a counterfeit, for he is but the counterfeit of
    a man who hath not the life of a man; but to counterfeit dying,
    when a man thereby liveth, is to be no counterfeit, but the true
    and perfect image of life indeed. The better part of valor is
    discretion, in the which better part I have sav'd my life.
    Henry The Fourth, Part 1 Act 5, scene 4, 115–121

    To paraphrase, the better part of valor is discretion, by which I have saved myself
    an arrest, lots of legal fees, and possibly some fun time in Tennessee Colony. (TX Penal Colony)
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  6. #51
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    As far as pepper in a situation like this, I think it depends very much on type of device you have. If we are talking a foam dispenser or maybe a stream that might be a viable option. A fog type aerosol dispensor could potentially be negligent.

    While we have civil immunity in Texas, that only extends to protecting us from civil actions by the BG and his family/estate. We have no immunity from actions brought against us by innocent third parties that we injure/damage even if our use of force is found to be justified. If our use of an aerosol in a crowded and confined space causes a stampede, we can be held liable for all damages. Remeber that security guard trampled and killed at that Walmart a couple of years ago? Even using pepper spray you could still end up facing a wrongful death suit.
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  7. #52
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oldnfat View Post
    Pepper spray in a crowd of people? How many would that "assault"? No shots were fired. The attack was stopped. The only injury was to the man who was assaulted. He prepared to defend himself against further attack. No one was arrested. How much better could this have turned out?
    The end result sometimes does not mean it was a wise decision. That aside, this forum is for folks to discuss what could have been done better and what possibly was done wrong.

    Just like an AAR it is not suppose to be a love fest congratulating someone 'just because it turned out ok". That is how we learn
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    And I said, “Here am I. Send me!”

    Isaiah 6:8

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    As far as pepper in a situation like this, I think it depends very much on type of device you have. If we are talking a foam dispenser or maybe a stream that might be a viable option. A fog type aerosol dispensor could potentially be negligent.

    While we have civil immunity in Texas, that only extends to protecting us from civil actions by the BG and his family/estate. We have no immunity from actions brought against us by innocent third parties that we injure/damage even if our use of force is found to be justified. If our use of an aerosol in a crowded and confined space causes a stampede, we can be held liable for all damages. Remeber that security guard trampled and killed at that Walmart a couple of years ago? Even using pepper spray you could still end up facing a wrongful death suit.
    All true enough but still a safer option than pulling out a gun, which could cause a similar stampede as well, if not
    more probably so.

    (Responsibility for Black Friday stampedes should go to the merchants, but I don't make the
    rules.)
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    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thunder71 View Post
    One punch can kill.


    Tapatalk - Helping people post from bathrooms since 2009.
    Exactly. Punching someone in the face is assault with a deadly weapon the way I see it.

  10. #55
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    As far as pepper in a situation like this, I think it depends very much on type of device you have. If we are talking a foam dispenser or maybe a stream that might be a viable option. A fog type aerosol dispensor could potentially be negligent.

    While we have civil immunity in Texas, that only extends to protecting us from civil actions by the BG and his family/estate. We have no immunity from actions brought against us by innocent third parties that we injure/damage even if our use of force is found to be justified. If our use of an aerosol in a crowded and confined space causes a stampede, we can be held liable for all damages. Remeber that security guard trampled and killed at that Walmart a couple of years ago? Even using pepper spray you could still end up facing a wrongful death suit.
    You make a good point but is it likely that dispensing pepper spray is going to end with a wrongful death suit? I'm not a statistician but I suspect that when its compared to discharging a firearm, the odds of using pepper spray ending up in a wrongful death suit is minuscule. If we play the odds game, I would argue that it would be even safer to apply the old adage of avoiding dangerous situations altogether and avoid Black Fridays. Since this didn't happen and we're left with playing out a scenario that accounts for the least amount of casualties, we have to decide on plausible actions. Its impossible to predict with 100% assurance with what will happen if I do, A, B, or C. Even if we opt for retreat (which is less likely to cause a stampede) there's no guarantee that we won't be pursued (trigger the fight response from the aggressor) which will escalate the matter. Escalation can easily turn nasty and can incite a mob mentality and result in a mob fight - which you could be possibly be pinned with, etc.

    Like an earlier argument that was made, the consequence of dispensing pepper spray is going to be immensely less severe than shooting a firearm if we are presented with liability issues.

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DefConGun View Post
    You make a good point but is it likely that dispensing pepper spray is going to end with a wrongful death suit? I'm not a statistician but I suspect that when its compared to discharging a firearm, the odds of using pepper spray ending up in a wrongful death suit is minuscule. If we play the odds game, I would argue that it would be even safer to apply the old adage of avoiding dangerous situations altogether and avoid Black Fridays. Since this didn't happen and we're left with playing out a scenario that accounts for the least amount of casualties, we have to decide on plausible actions. Its impossible to predict with 100% assurance with what will happen if I do, A, B, or C. Even if we opt for retreat (which is less likely to cause a stampede) there's no guarantee that we won't be pursued (trigger the fight response from the aggressor) which will escalate the matter. Escalation can easily turn nasty and can incite a mob mentality and result in a mob fight - which you could be possibly be pinned with, etc.

    Like an earlier argument that was made, the consequence of dispensing pepper spray is going to be immensely less severe than shooting a firearm if we are presented with liability issues.
    The odds of a fatality from the stampede I don't think are any different for pepper/pistol. I think the best response (weapon involved) would be a pepper foam. Less likely to hit bystanders and low probability of contaminating the inventory. Next best option a supressed weapon. Stampede is not likely to be any larger than from display of firearm.

    But I agree best option is not being there. ( Have not left the house all day.)
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  12. #57
    Distinguished Member Array DefConGun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    The odds of a fatality from the stampede I don't think are any different for pepper/pistol. I think the best response (weapon involved) would be a pepper foam. Less likely to hit bystanders and low probability of contaminating the inventory. Next best option a supressed weapon. Stampede is not likely to be any larger than from display of firearm.

    But I agree best option is not being there. ( Have not left the house all day.)
    There is a lot to be said for staying at home. ;-)

    I didn't mean the stampede would be less fatal from presenting pepper spray. I meant that when compared to damages incurred, pepper will do less damage (to people, I had not considered inventory). Also, I'm thinking the odds of presenting pepper is a lot less likely to incite a stampede as opposed to presenting a firearm.

    I also had not considered foam, that's a good suggestion.

  13. #58
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    Savages out there gotta get they stuff,,

  14. #59
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    In NC..if you happened to shoot anybody because they punched you or shoved you and they had no other weapon and their were witnesses you are going to jail, gun confiscated and never again will you conceal carry.....however there is an exception....such as you are a 110 lb man or woman being attached by a 280 lb BG or you are elderly (not sure how they define that one) being attached by a larger younger person...

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    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

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