Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee

[mcp1810]

There is a lot to be said for staying at home. ;-)

I didn't mean the stampede would be less fatal from presenting pepper spray. I meant that when compared to damages incurred, pepper will do less damage (to people, I had not considered inventory). Also, I'm thinking the odds of presenting pepper is a lot less likely to incite a stampede as opposed to presenting a firearm.

I also had not considered foam, that's a good suggestion.

I don't think you are going to get a whole lot more of a stampede from people seeing one rather than the other. The big stampede issue I see is if the HVAC system transports the spray to other parts of the store. You then are going to potentially be looking at stampedes from multiple points (maybe running into each other) and millions of dollars of inventory contaminated as well. Clothes that smell of OC I would not expect to sell very well. I would expect the retailers lawyers would be demanding payment.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Hopyard]

I don't think you are going to get a whole lot more of a stampede from people seeing one rather than the other. The big stampede issue I see is if the HVAC system transports the spray to other parts of the store. You then are going to potentially be looking at stampedes from multiple points (maybe running into each other) and millions of dollars of inventory contaminated as well. Clothes that smell of OC I would not expect to sell very well. I would expect the retailers lawyers would be demanding payment.

The old saying, "the solution to pollution is dilution," applies. In a reasonably large store
the stuff will be sufficiently diluted by the HVAC and (filters?) to not cause a stampede.
Outside, only those directly sprayed or dosed by the wind will be affected, and the latter will be getting a rather diluted dose.
I think this pepper stampede is mostly a non-issue that sounds plausible, but isn't. We aren't talking
about letting 16 ounces loose. A couple of squirts right on the BG, few others will notice.
Too busy trying to get a bargain.

[DefConGun]

I don't think you are going to get a whole lot more of a stampede from people seeing one rather than the other. The big stampede issue I see is if the HVAC system transports the spray to other parts of the store. You then are going to potentially be looking at stampedes from multiple points (maybe running into each other) and millions of dollars of inventory contaminated as well. Clothes that smell of OC I would not expect to sell very well. I would expect the retailers lawyers would be demanding payment.

And that's what the courts are for, etc. They can want damages but it doesn't mean they will get it. The guy that was punched, I'm sure didn't want to get assaulted but he did just the same, and on store property - I might add. I hadn't thought of damage done to inventory as being a liability I could possibly be responsible for but with damages incurred on both sides, it could easily turn into a stale-mate.

You make excellent points to consider.

[BurgerBoy]

Punch to my face = drawn gun!

[mkphillips]

I don't see how a single punch is insufficient. a single punch to my head could very easily paralyze me. A second or more would be very bad. If I'm able I won't allow anymore punches to land. If that requires me to pull my weapon and maybe more then so be it.

[Hopyard]

I don't see how a single punch is insufficient. a single punch to my head could very easily paralyze me. A second or more would be very bad. If I'm able I won't allow anymore punches to land. If that requires me to pull my weapon and maybe more then so be it.

It isn't the single punch that is the determinant of whether or not you have cause to pull.
It happened, and it is over.

You have cause to pull only if the danger is on going, and a reasonable person would perceive it thus.

Someone punching you is not a continuing threat to you if they back off and start to run. The threat
has ended.

I'm going to suggest that a serious attacker who really intended serious harm would have thrown
combos and finished the job, or a sucker punch and then taken off.

In the first instance where combos are used you'd not likely be able to draw your gun because
you are being knocked silly. In the second, you'd have no justification because the threat ended.

You don't get to strike back. Retaliation is off the table. You only get to do what you need to do to stop an ongoing attack.

I witnessed a man get one heck of a beating/kicking, and thrown down a flight of stairs.
I don't know what precipitated it, but the blows were so rapid and in such
combos that a knife or gun would have been totally useless. (An important lesson to keep in mind.)

The guy in our present scenario wasn't seriously harmed. The only question is whether or not the
assailant would have continued to attack
had the gun not been brought into play, and not being there and not being in the defender's shoes,
we can only guess.

[MrBuckwheat]

Merry Christmas...jerk

Anybody that goes out on Black Friday should expect delays and some tense moments.

[dben002]

Hopyard....agreed 100%...lots of cowboys on this site. Don't know or understand or care about CC laws in their states or anywhere else. Scary. I've got a gun and I'll use it for any reason seems to be a continuing posture on this site. just saying......

[JoJoGunn]

Was pulling a weapon to defend one's self irresponsible? Perhaps.

Was the lower form of human throwing punches after jumping line and being called on it justified? Put yourself into the place of the person getting beaten and maybe you'd do exactly the same thing.

This thug needed a good lesson in how to behave. What if the guy popped him center mass over some stupid material things he apparently wanted more than life itself?

Politeness and goodness have flown out the window these days, and it's the "it's all about me" mentality that got a pistol waved at him after throwing a punch. Lessons learned we hope for perhaps the next time ,some aggressive scum bucket will get killed.

Like someone said, they were not there to assess the situation, they are all different, no one-size-fits-all situation. My wife went out Thursday night when stores opened and her .357 magnum accompanied her. You cannot trust people to be civil and decent anymore and this story proves it beyond a reasonable doubt.

[archer51]

Not really enough info in the report.

That said, IMO the carriers first mistake was in not avoiding stupid places and people. ANY retail store on Black Friday is a stupid place, and anyone standing in line waiting for them to open falls into the stupid people category.

Pepper spray might have been a better choice, but without knowing what was said, it is really hard to say for sure. If the aggressive person made threats prior to the attack, I can see justification in drawing.

[wmhawth]

Saw this on our news today.

Man Pulls Gun on Rowdy Line-cutting Shopper

Basic story, someone cut in line, acted rowdy, and punched a license holder who then
pulled a gun. The license holder was not arrested.

I tend to disagree with that decision to not arrest. 1) Insufficient threat to the license holder,
2) Too much hazard to innocents nearby. 3) Perfect situation for pepper or better yet, some
deep self-control and retreat. 4) Being on line for a Black Friday sale violates the rules of stupid.

Thoughts from the gallery please.

I'm well past the age for going mano-a-mano with some crazy punk and I have no intention of being anyone's punching bag so draw your conclusion from that. Right or wrong my sympathies are with the license holder in this scenario.

I wouldn't have been there in the first place of course and the one certainty here is that:

Being on line for a Black Friday sale violates the rules of stupid.

[JoJoGunn]

Being on line for a Black Friday sale violates the rules of stupid.

Somewhat true but does that matter at all? People have the right to go to places no matter how dumb they seem to be. This CCW holder had the right to go to this place and to live in relative safety during the event. Just because people find this kind of thing silly does not mean others find it so.

It is the actions of one individual that marrs the event with violence over a place in a long line. It is in effect similar to cases of road rage and so it can be coined as

"long line rage."

People need to learn patience, and respect for others. The need of instant gratification nearly cost this thug his life. Like somene else said, "right or wrong" I'm with the CCW guy on this one. Maybe the unusual nature of this will make others think before they go off doing violence in a crowed place.

[Kimberpackn]

I think the gun owner was fortunate not to have been arrested. No obvious threat of death here.

[tcox4freedom]

He drew his gun to defend himself after being punched in the face. He didn't "pull a gun on a rowdy line-cutting shopper."

We don't know if the fellow getting punched wasn't 70 and the guy punching was 25 and 6'2".

I think the news said that the guy that pulled the gun was 33. I wasn't there so I can't say if it was justified or not. But, pulling his gun may have saved him AND a few other people from a beat-down. I'm not so sure about using pepper spray in a crowd either. Pepper spray can be dangerous & even deadly. (It will send me into anaphylactic shock.)

Personally, I can't see my self shooting in this situation either. I would be too concerned about over penetration & hitting innocents. I think this may have been a could case for using a "stun" device.

But, this proves the point- "Pulling a firearm may be necessary to de-escalate a situation when shooting is NOT required or advised."


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[tcox4freedom]

Somewhat true but does that matter at all? People have the right to go to places no matter how dumb they seem to be. This CCW holder had the right to go to this place and to live in relative safety during the event. Just because people find this kind of thing silly does not mean others find it so.

It is the actions of one individual that marrs the event with violence over a place in a long line. It is in effect similar to cases of road rage and so it can be coined as

"long line rage."

People need to learn patience, and respect for others. The need of instant gratification nearly cost this thug his life. Like somene else said, "right or wrong" I'm with the CCW guy on this one. Maybe the unusual nature of this will make others think before they go off doing violence in a crowed place.

A little OT. But, it brought to mind what happened to me of Wed before Thanksgiving. (At the local WW again buying last minute groceries.)

It was a madhouse with long lines & short of help. Anyway, I found myself at the back of a long line chatting to a younger black gentleman & who was with his older dad that just came up behind me.

Finally, after I had been standing in line about five minutes they opened up another check beside us. The old man ran over to the new check out line & grabbed the spot. I could have got ticked off. Instead, I just shook my head & smiled.

The son apologized & the old man just kinda laughed & said; "you gotta be quicker".

I smiled & told him; "It was fine because Santa Claus knows whose been bad or good and I was gonna be good."

They actually ended up waiting on me to check out & we talked another minute or two & wished each other a "Happy Thanksgiving" & "Merry Christmas". I could have been a jerk because I had been waited five minutes & they only waited one or two. But, instead, I chose to be friendly & respectful; and was rewarded in kind.

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