Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee

This is a discussion on Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by ntkb He pulls the gun after he is attacked, not before, if he was to use mace or pepper spray and it ...

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Thread: Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by ntkb View Post
    He pulls the gun after he is attacked, not before, if he was to use mace or pepper spray and it got other people a law suit may have been pending. I disagree with you completely, several people have been killed with just one punch and also others have had severe damage done to their person, losing an eye and what not.
    It’s high time people learned to be polite in public, my guess is the next time he thinks of smacking someone he will think twice.
    Quote Originally Posted by ntkb View Post
    As I read it the other guy fled the scene after hiding behind a refrigerator, seems he wasn’t there for LE to ask his opinion of what happened. I am guessing that others in the store had some things to say.
    Quote Originally Posted by d2jlking View Post
    Don't want to stare down a gun barrel? Don't punch people in the face. This isn't grade school. You don't get to bully people. Im glad he didn't get arrested for pulling his gun. A punch in the face is a clear signal that you are a violent criminal. The damage from a punch to the head can be severe. Even deadly.


    ^^^^^The buffoon who perpetrated this^^^^^^^^

    is probably the same kind of ilk that normally runs with a gang/pack, and was brazen enough to pull a stunt like this.

    The pulling of the gun was, IMHO justified. The reason it was pulled could very well be that the line-jumper was getting ready for swing #2.
    Could OC spray have been used successfully?; YES/possibly, we don't know.
    Was the firearm used successfully?; YES.
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  3. #77
    Member Array minimalbrat's Avatar
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    There really isn't enough information. How old was the man who was punched? How old was the other man? Is that all that happened?
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  4. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    Finally, after I had been standing in line about five minutes they opened up another check beside us. The old man ran over to the new check out line & grabbed the spot. I could have got ticked off. Instead, I just shook my head & smiled.

    The son apologized & the old man just kinda laughed & said; "you gotta be quicker".

    I smiled & told him; "It was fine because Santa Claus knows whose been bad or good and I was gonna be good."

    They actually ended up waiting on me to check out & we talked another minute or two & wished each other a "Happy Thanksgiving" & "Merry Christmas". I could have been a jerk because I had been waited five minutes & they only waited one or two. But, instead, I chose to be friendly & respectful; and was rewarded in kind.
    It's funny how simple it can be. Good on ya. Upside was, you had a good chat, kept your BP down, went out smiling, and nobody got their day fouled up. All because someone refused to get bent about so little a thing. It's easy, when you know how.
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  5. #79
    Senior Member Array DaGunny's Avatar
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    In North Carolina, "Simple Assault" does not justify the use of leathal force. So, if you can't use it...don't draw. My point is that we all need to know the relevant laws state laws. This is especially true if you're traveling through or or visiting a different state.
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  6. #80
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    DaGunny... excellent point. the point being if you are uneducated about the laws concerning lethal force (deadly force ) leave your guns at home before you kill someone and screw up the rest of your life as well.
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  7. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kimberpackn View Post
    I think the gun owner was fortunate not to have been arrested. No obvious threat of death here.
    And as I already posted, in Texas you do not need the threat of death to respond in kind and 'brandish' a deadly weapon. ANY threat that justifies a response can be responded to with showing a deadly weapon, as per the actual written law.
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  8. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by minimalbrat View Post
    There really isn't enough information. How old was the man who was punched? How old was the other man? Is that all that happened?
    Not much information on the age or anything else about the people involved. I read over a dozen different links on the story and only one mentioned the man with the gun was 33 and nothing else about the other person. The writer wrote "the gun had a single bullet in the chamber" so that really tells a lot about the writer.
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  9. #83
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    linuss, I agree. A lot of posts in this thread are failing to separate the threat of deadly force with the use of deadly force. Big difference. The victim's actions in this case were legal under Texas law, and since the BG stopped his assault, seems like the victim made some decent (at least) choices. The responding LEO's seem to agree.

  10. #84
    Senior Member Array Fausty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ghost tracker View Post
    God bless Texas. Things got settled with no lawyers, judge or jury required. Just a level-headed LEO with some on-the-scene discretion. Some bully misbehaved, he got called-out, he punched someone, he saw a muzzle, he changed his mind, everybody went home. Sounds like a happy ending to me.
    this.

    i know if i was hypothetically in this situation (which i never would be) i would want it to play out the same way. if the guy got arrested, i would probably end up having to testify, and on top of that my assailant would probably find a reason to sue me.
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  11. #85
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    IMO lots of folks here are misconstruing and stretching the meaning of the TX law and
    potentially putting themselves in Tennessee Colony. It matters not a wit that
    the presentation may not be considered assault with a deadly weapon; there are other levels
    of assault which may be applicable. There are other offenses which can be applied and attached to the
    described act.

    Be practical. If they don't need to be shot to save your life, don't point at them.
    (Which btw was TX law until recently. It was illegal to point unless the use of lethal
    force was justified.)

    Keep this in mind, the safe (from a legal standpoint) thing is to use the least force a situation
    requires (or no force if possible), and never threaten.

    Don't feel smug that you can't be charged with assault with a deadly weapon; try "terroristic threat"
    on for size; maybe child endangerment since there was a crowd; and any of several other goodies
    you wouldn't enjoy being charged with. Maybe even assault with a deadly weapon on those you
    swept inadvertently.

    It doesn't always end as nicely as it did for this man. He got lucky.
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  12. #86
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    IMO lots of folks here are misconstruing and stretching the meaning of the TX law and
    potentially putting themselves in Tennessee Colony. It matters not a wit that
    the presentation may not be considered assault with a deadly weapon; there are other levels
    of assault which may be applicable. There are other offenses which can be applied and attached to the
    described act.

    Be practical. If they don't need to be shot to save your life, don't point at them.
    (Which btw was TX law until recently. It was illegal to point unless the use of lethal
    force was justified.)

    Keep this in mind, the safe (from a legal standpoint) thing is to use the least force a situation
    requires (or no force if possible), and never threaten.

    Don't feel smug that you can't be charged with assault with a deadly weapon; try "terroristic threat"
    on for size; maybe child endangerment since there was a crowd; and any of several other goodies
    you wouldn't enjoy being charged with. Maybe even assault with a deadly weapon on those you
    swept inadvertently.

    It doesn't always end as nicely as it did for this man. He got lucky.
    Yes and no.
    Texas Statutes - Section 9.05: RECKLESS INJURY OF INNOCENT THIRD PERSON

    Even though an actor is justified under this chapter in threatening or using force or deadly force against another, if in doing so he also recklessly injures or kills an innocent third person, the justification afforded by this chapter is unavailable in a prosecution for the reckless injury or killing of the innocent third person.
    The thing to remember is that chapter 9 of the Texas Penal Code is Justification Excluding Criminal Responsibility the functional part of that is Excluding Criminal Responsibility. As in if your actions are in accord with this section of the code you have not committed a criminal act. For you to criminally liable you would need to violate 9.05. To do that you must injure or kill an innocent third person. That did not happen here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    Yes and no.

    The thing to remember is that chapter 9 of the Texas Penal Code is Justification Excluding Criminal Responsibility the functional part of that is Excluding Criminal Responsibility. As in if your actions are in accord with this section of the code you have not committed a criminal act. For you to criminally liable you would need to violate 9.05. To do that you must injure or kill an innocent third person. That did not happen here.
    As stated earlier-- it comes down to this: PC §9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.

    And to this:PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
    (1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
    (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or

    I put the word "reasonably" in bold because that is the big unknown in this scenario and often in many
    others. It is something decided by others with 20/20 hindsight.
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  14. #88
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    As stated earlier-- it comes down to this: PC §9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force.

    And to this:PC §9.32. DEADLY FORCE IN DEFENSE OF PERSON. (a) A person is justified in using deadly force against another:
    (1) if the actor would be justified in using force against the other under Section 9.31; and
    (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the deadly force is immediately necessary:
    (A) to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful deadly force; or

    I put the word "reasonably" in bold because that is the big unknown in this scenario and often in many
    others. It is something decided by others with 20/20 hindsight.
    9.32 does not apply since by statute deadly force was not used.
    Texas Statutes - Section 9.04: THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE

    The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force
    So really the only question here is was the victim justified under 9.31? Based on the result I would have to follow the judgement of the officers on the scene and say his belief was reasonable.
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  15. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    9.32 does not apply since by statute deadly force was not used.

    So really the only question here is was the victim justified under 9.31? Based on the result I would have to follow the judgement of the officers on the scene and say his belief was reasonable.
    Based on the results, know to us at this time, I would agree that the judgment of the officer on
    the scene is the only one that counts. We probably won't know
    if on reflection there are charges lodged later. Just because he wasn't immediately arrested doesn't mean he is entirely in the clear.

    It is also possible that another officer at the scene
    may have viewed this particular use of force as unreasonable. See, that is the problem with
    our law-- it is too vague.

    I read the story and think one thing, others think something else, and the law as worded gives
    little guidance. It addresses that you may use force against force but it doesn't address
    proportionality in any way at all.

    If instead of the punch the man was shoved, would that justify the same response-- force against force?
    Embedded within that phrase "reasonably believes" I think one can find a concept of proportionality.

    Part of the problem we are struggling with is that the TX law defined pointing a gun at someone
    as something other than the use of lethal force. This recent change is a significant departure from the prior code and from the use of force laws found in other states.

    Read too literally one could point a gun in very many circumstances where only a slight
    shove (or walking away) would suffice.

    I think it will be very interesting to see how the case law shakes out on this, as
    in its present form the code is deeply flawed, IMO. ymmv
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  16. #90
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    IMO the LEO gave the CC'er the benefit of the doubt. No one was shot not injured. If there was a shooting I am sure there would have been more scrutiny.
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