Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee - Page 9

Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee

This is a discussion on Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by 9MMare You are certainly inferring much more than we know. I dont remember anyone mentioning that he couldnt retreat, that he was ...

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Thread: Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee

  1. #121
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    You are certainly inferring much more than we know. I dont remember anyone mentioning that he couldnt retreat, that he was taken 'down' by the punch. He managed to draw, so he wasnt disabled. The assailant wanted to cut in line...why would he chase him down???? Some people choose to react, not think. I'd hope those of us carrying guns manage to think first.

    Why dont you reply to my other posts...the ones where I ask about the judgement used in drawing a gun or even pepper spray in a crowded business *when the option to NOT do so exists.* As I also wrote...what if you werent carrying a gun? Would everyone else just have been beaten to death????? Good lord, talk about the very manifestation of, "if all you have is a hammer, every problem is a nail."
    Im not INFERRING anything! I'm merely offering factors that may or may not come up in a similiar scenario. If you read the whole thread, you will see that there are now two different reported versions of this incident. The truth? No one commenting here KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED. Therefore, we are all, giving our opinions based on too little information. Just because he was able to draw doesn't mean he was not disabled. Plenty of examples of people being shot and managing to draw their weapon. Seems you are inferring that the punch was a love tap to some non-vital portion of his body that caused no ill-effects.

    Why would he chase him down? No idea! Why did he punch him? Do you know that? Nope. Me either.

    I agree, think first, act second. That doesn't always happen. If you think people who carry guns are immune to anger, shock, and the fight or flight response, then you are wrong.

    I will reply to the statements you made in other posts. Though I didn't know it was required of me. Pepper spray, gun, club, fingernails.....whatever! My only point is that I believe it's wrong to judge this man's response based on the very little information we were initially given. Of course, there are times when retreat or not drawing or using a gun is the best solution. Never said that was NOT the case. Additionally, if I didn't have a gun, then (as I stated in previous posts) my response to being punched in the face would depend on the circumstances. I may run for my life. I may pepper spray you. I may kick you in the knee. I may cry like a little girl.

    I do NOT understand why anyone (again, given the initial report and its VERY limited details) would be so quick to judge someone for defending themselves with a gun. He didn't shoot into the crowd. He didn't shoot at all. He stopped the assault by drawing his weapon.

    As for your last sentence. You can infer whatever you like about my opinion. However, I have been carrying a firearm for many years. I am law-abiding and like to think that I use sound judgements. I have never had to draw my weapon to solve a problem. So....NO every problem isn't a nail just because I have a hammer! GOOD LORD


  2. #122
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    We all commented on the initial article...and said the cop on the scene made his decision not to charge based on HIS info at the scene....and we accepted that.

    However from the info released in that initial article...we discussed why and if drawing a weapon after being punched was the correct action.

    That was the info we had. And many supported him drawing that firearm, including yourself unless I misunderstood. There was and still is no reason to think he couldnt have removed himself from that situation.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  3. #123
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    We all commented on the initial article...and said the cop on the scene made his decision not to charge based on HIS info at the scene....and we accepted that.

    However from the info released in that initial article...we discussed why and if drawing a weapon after being punched was the correct action.

    That was the info we had. And many supported him drawing that firearm, including yourself unless I misunderstood. There was and still is no reason to think he couldnt have removed himself from that situation.
    You did not misunderstand. Based on the initial info, I supported his decision without knowing every detail. You are right that according to the initial info there is no reason to think he couldn't have just walked off. My contention is that, while retreat may have been a better option, it certainly wasn't the only valid one.

  4. #124
    Member Array d2jlking's Avatar
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    Difficult topic. Good discussion. I appreciate all the varied opinions.

  5. #125
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    Victim gets physically assaulted by criminal (physically assaulting someone is a crime). This is called "use of force".

    Victim brandishes weapon. This is called "show of force".

    Criminal flees the scene of the crime.

    I can't believe people are vilifying this victim for defending himself against a "use of force" with a "show of force".
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  6. #126
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Victim brandishes weapon. This is called "show of force".

    I can't believe people are vilifying this victim for defending himself against a "use of force" with a "show of force".
    In some states, they don't distinguish between "show" and "use." Much of the vilification comes from that, I'd bet.

    I'm with you: drawing <> firing, and showing a violent criminal that the absolute end of the line has been reached (prior to actually employing deadly force) has its place. Whether that'll pass the "sniff" test, though, is heavily dependent on state law and the sanity/rationality of the local constabulary and DA with respect to such things.
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  7. #127
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    In some states, they don't distinguish between "show" and "use." Much of the vilification comes from that, I'd bet.

    I'm with you: drawing <> firing, and showing a violent criminal that the absolute end of the line has been reached (prior to actually employing deadly force) has its place. Whether that'll pass the "sniff" test, though, is heavily dependent on state law and the sanity/rationality of the local constabulary and DA with respect to such things.
    A guy punched him. Trying to cut into line.

    He chose to draw a deadly weapon instead of de-escalating (such as leaving) the situation in a crowded business.

    What if the situation had escalated with the sight of that weapon? What if the 'puncher' drew a gun? A knife? Panics and holds that knife to a kid's throat? Then the man with the gun has to shoot (basically...cant outrun a bullet if other guy pulls gun). What if another cc'er sees it and decides to get involved?


    I hope that doesnt sound too 'extreme' but I dont think so if you are calling the puncher a 'violent criminal.'

    Did he break the law? I guess it depends on the state...and the officer on the scene said no....but was that the responsible option? IMO, no.
    Hopyard and Bark'n like this.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #128
    VIP Member Array suntzu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1MoreGoodGuy View Post
    Victim gets physically assaulted by criminal (physically assaulting someone is a crime). This is called "use of force".

    Victim brandishes weapon. This is called "show of force".

    Criminal flees the scene of the crime.

    I can't believe people are vilifying this victim for defending himself against a "use of force" with a "show of force".
    Are you saying it is OK to draw your weapon whenever their is any force against you? Or at least it is OK. You got to be kidding me. A slap to the face? A punch (which does no real harm but ticks you off).

    What do you teach your kids? If their is a playground fight go and get a knife and show it to the other kids?
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  9. #129
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I'm with you: drawing <> firing, and showing a violent criminal that the absolute end of the line has been reached (prior to actually employing deadly force) has its place. Whether that'll pass the "sniff" test, though, is heavily dependent on state law and the sanity/rationality of the local constabulary and DA with respect to such things.
    A guy punched him.

    He chose to draw a deadly weapon instead of de-escalating (such as leaving) the situation in a crowded business.
    Exactly the point.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by suntzu View Post
    Are you saying it is OK to draw your weapon whenever their is any force against you? Or at least it is OK. You got to be kidding me. A slap to the face? A punch (which does no real harm but ticks you off).

    What do you teach your kids? If their is a playground fight go and get a knife and show it to the other kids?
    Nope, not "whenever" and not in response to "any" force. Are you saying that it is never OK to draw your weapon whenever there is any force against you? You and I both know that there are no absolutes here. Unholstering a firearm is an available option if I am under attack. I m not say that I would unholster my weapon in this instance...I wasn't there...I didn't experience what the victim experienced and there isn't enough information in the articles for me to come to a definitive conclusion as to how I would have reacted to this particular attack. We do know that in this particular instance the attack did not continue after the weapon was unholstered and we know no one else got hurt after the weapon was unholstered.

    Would this be a better response for you:
    This Out-of-Control Black Friday Brawl Started Over Women’s Underwear at Victoria’s Secret | Video | TheBlaze.com
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  11. #131
    Distinguished Member Array dben002's Avatar
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    Point being here pulling a weapon in a crowded situation against another who shows no deadly weapon is called escalation of force. Had the aggressor gone for a weapon after escalation, shots could have been fired and innocents harmed. No it did not happen that way and no one got seriously hurt, but for the grace of God.
    Hopyard, suntzu and 9MMare like this.
    There are two types of people who carry concealed weapons...Responsible ones and Irresponsible ones...which are you...

  12. #132
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    Real scenario from the news: License holder pulls gun during Black Friday melee

    How small/old was the guy who pulled the gun and how large/young was the guy who threw the punch?

  13. #133
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SickMAK90 View Post
    How small/old was the guy who pulled the gun and how large/young was the guy who threw the punch?
    ... and how hard/devastating was the punch, or was it a few punches, and did it reasonably instill in the recipient of the punch(es) a legitimate fear of serious injury? That was also unstated in the article. Hard to know much without that, though the mere fact he wasn't charged for drawing his weapon is telling.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  14. #134
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    Wouldn't it be nice if the license holder were a participant here and would come on and say a few words? Or if someone
    who participates here knows the guy and could get more info and post it 3rd hand to nothing could be used against
    the license holder?
    If the Union is once severed, the line of separation will grow wider and wider, and the controversies which are now debated and settled in the halls of legislation will then be tried in fields of battle and determined by the sword.
    Andrew Jackson

  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
    Point being here pulling a weapon in a crowded situation against another who shows no deadly weapon is call escalation of force.
    I have to disagree with that statement. Here in Texas, where this incident occurred, there is a difference between "use of force" and "show of force". Hands can be deadly weapons and punching someone is a "use of force". Brandishing a weapon is not an "escalation of force"...someone seeing a weapon is not a greater amount of force than a punch. Brandishing is a "show of force". Firing the gun is a "use of force" which would be an "escalation of force" if it was in response to a punch...gunfire is a greater amount of force than a punch.


    Quote Originally Posted by dben002 View Post
    Had the aggressor gone for a weapon after escalation, shots could have been fired and innocents harmed. No it did not happen that way and no one got seriously hurt, but for the grace of God.
    We need to stop with all the "what if" this happened, "what if" that happened, "what if" the BG pulled a gun, "what if" we changed the situation to fit the point I want to make. We all know that just about anything is possible.

    Was unholstering his firearm the best decision in this situation? My guess is, probably not. But it is just that...a guess. I'm not going to vilify the guy for make the decision he made. There simply isn't enough information to make an informed decision as to whether or not the victim made the best decision.
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