BREAKING: Shooting Connecticut Elementary School in Newtown

This is a discussion on BREAKING: Shooting Connecticut Elementary School in Newtown within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by brocktice I kind of agree with Ogien. This is getting ridiculous. It's what, 3 incidents in 1-2 weeks? Something has to change, ...

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Thread: BREAKING: Shooting Connecticut Elementary School in Newtown

  1. #376
    VIP Member Array mprp's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brocktice View Post
    I kind of agree with Ogien. This is getting ridiculous. It's what, 3 incidents in 1-2 weeks? Something has to change, but I haven't the first clue what. I know what a large portion of my friends and acquaintances are thinking, and that is, "no more guns." It's going to be a huge problem.
    This is a very heated topic I realize and I don't believe that either side is more passionate about senseless killings than the other. We all agree that something needs to be done. But now let's see, wave the magic political wand and make them all go away? This is America, I don't see that happening. Americans love their freedom and even if you take all of them away, criminals will make sure they are able to get them in illegally. Making more firearms laws to prevent crime, to me, is like saying that maybe a bigger sign posted at the 7-11 would have prevented that criminal from walking in and robbing the place.

    So here's my proposal: Now that we have implemented gun control and have a proven record that it does not work and only disarms the good citizens in some places, let's try something else. How about taking the word from the experts, the ones who have to deal with the criminal element every day. The ones who don't only watch CNN or Fox and react with emotion, but actually see both sides, from the thwarted crimes to the one's that they have to go to in order to sift through the innocent bodies and report to the families. The ones who have to act on and respond to active shooters, robberies, rapes and any other reported violence to the ones who have to evaluate the criminal mind. It's my belief that LE together with other professional, (not political) entities can make much more progress on an actual solution to this growing societal problem, rather than just the "take all the guns" approach.

    IMO, the powers that be should take a VERY good look at the findings and recommendations by the professionals and close the gap between politics and professional practice in order to make some real progress. There is no reason that this couldn't be done without stepping on the Constitution. No freedoms should be lost in the name of public safety and wouldn't be if public safety is actually the goal.

    How about rather than attempting to pull the wool over our own eyes and blame a weapon for a crime, we just go ahead and admit that there are bad people out there and maybe, just maybe, this is what needs to be dealt with instead of a magazine or a weapon type.
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  3. #377
    Ex Member Array Ogien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TX expat View Post
    No it absolutely does become my business because you are choosing to take what you believe and apply it to other people and that does make it my business. You can talk all day long about what you are personally going to do to keep a tragedy like this from occurring again. More power to you. Once you start suggesting what I should do, or more importantly, be subject to, then you've crossed the line from your business to my business.

    You see, I know how useless thee shots could be. Because I train I realize that guns jam, one shot stops are rare, stress causes errors and gun fights aren't like the movies. Because I train I realize that there is no advantage not worth having, especially if my life or the lives of my family are on the line. And finally, because I train I can, without much error, easily spot the person who hasn't trained. So your posturing about what you aren't going to prove because you don't know anything about me rings as false as it is. How about you just man up and admit that you took your state mandated course for concealed carry, if you even did that, and just move on. Not having knowledge isn't a crime, or even shameful, but trying to pass yourself off as knowing more than you do is pretty useless when you are talking to a group of folks that do have a higher degree of understanding.

    If you want to come here and "raise questions and suggest ideas as they occur to me, I put them out there and hope for intelligent responses", then that's fine by me, but you better have either a very solid foundation for those ideas or you should be ready to accept the critical responses that you receive. You aren't in a position to create intelligent responses when your ideas aren't borne from experience.
    Keep insisting all you want it won't help you one bit. I don't know you and I'm not proving anything to you, even if I did know who you were I wouldn't prove anything to you. I have an idea, try holding your breath and when you turn blue maybe that will sway my decision and give you what you want. LMAO

    Would you like to know whether I wear boxers or briefs also?

    You're so demanding yet I haven't even heard a please or may I from you. Like I said, it's NONE of your business and you won't get anything from me. Still might want to try that breath holding thing though, you never know.
    detective likes this.

  4. #378
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  5. #379
    Ex Member Array Ogien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mprp View Post
    This is a very heated topic I realize and I don't believe that either side is more passionate about senseless killings than the other. We all agree that something needs to be done. But now let's see, wave the magic political wand and make them all go away? This is America, I don't see that happening. Americans love their freedom and even if you take all of them away, criminals will make sure they are able to get them in illegally. Making more firearms laws to prevent crime, to me, is like saying that maybe a bigger sign posted at the 7-11 would have prevented that criminal from walking in and robbing the place.

    So here's my proposal: Now that we have implemented gun control and have a proven record that it does not work and only disarms the good citizens in some places, let's try something else. How about taking the word from the experts, the ones who have to deal with the criminal element every day. The ones who don't only watch CNN or Fox and react with emotion, but actually see both sides, from the thwarted crimes to the one's that they have to go to in order to sift through the innocent bodies and report to the families. The ones who have to act on and respond to active shooters, robberies, rapes and any other reported violence to the ones who have to evaluate the criminal mind. It's my belief that LE together with other professional, (not political) entities can make much more progress on an actual solution to this growing societal problem, rather than just the "take all the guns" approach.

    IMO, the powers that be should take a VERY good look at the findings and recommendations by the professionals and close the gap between politics and professional practice in order to make some real progress. There is no reason that this couldn't be done without stepping on the Constitution. No freedoms should be lost in the name of public safety and wouldn't be if public safety is actually the goal.

    How about rather than attempting to pull the wool over our own eyes and blame a weapon for a crime, we just go ahead and admit that there are bad people out there and maybe, just maybe, this is what needs to be dealt with instead of a magazine or a weapon type.
    I agree with you. It's insanity to blame an inanimate object. Personally I think that keeping weapons out of the hands of those who are not mature enough or are mentally incapable of rational judgment or simply criminals to have a tougher time creating such carnage.

    I don't know what the answer is but I think it would be far better if the answer came from within the gun community than from outside of it.

  6. #380
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    I posted a nicer note about the same thing, maybe this one is not so nice but the bodies of dead children cool while some of this completely inappropriate political talk and pot-shots at THAT side and THIS side and Obama etc. reek on, my god - WHAT IS THE MATTER WITH YOU PEOPLE - this talk is completely inappropriate and shows a huge lack of empathy for the victims and families, you don't even mention them but show them all your heels as you climb up on your platforms.
    Maybe you should direct this to the media and the politicians, they are ALWAYS the first to use these tragedies to further their own agendas, or ratings. It's really pretty sad when you have to tune to the BBC to get other news, because there certainly is other news happening in the world.
    CharlesMorri and phreddy like this.
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  7. #381
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Maybe we need to take the example (as earlier suggested) of Israel, Peru, and other countries, and come at this proactively. "Yes something needs to be done -- get rid of so-called gun-free school zones and train school personnel." IMO that's a much better public message than, "No, you can't have our guns, no matter how many shooting rampages there are or who the victims are." Michigan has just in fact passed changes to their laws allowing permitted carry in many previously-off-limits zones, including schools. I was just discussing that with some friends on Facebook yesterday until this whole thing derailed us.

    Another point my wife made: this is going to paint a target on schools for terrorists, if they hadn't already had the idea. If there are no major terrorist attacks on schools in the next year I will be forced to conclude that either (a) the terrorist threat is way overstated or (b) something we're doing is actually keeping terrorists out of the country and/or disabled from doing damage.

  8. #382
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    My D-in-L is a teacher and does not like guns, but even she says it's not about the guns, but about the crazies out there. The problem is society.
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  9. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ogien View Post
    Keep insisting all you want it won't help you one bit. I don't know you and I'm not proving anything to you, even if I did know who you were I wouldn't prove anything to you. I have an idea, try holding your breath and when you turn blue maybe that will sway my decision and give you what you want. LMAO

    Would you like to know whether I wear boxers or briefs also?

    You're so demanding yet I haven't even heard a please or may I from you. Like I said, it's NONE of your business and you won't get anything from me. Still might want to try that breath holding thing though, you never know.
    It's actually been proven that you won't turn blue and/or die from holding your breath. It's physically impossible.
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  10. #384
    Senior Member Array Happypuppy's Avatar
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    BREAKING: Shooting Connecticut Elementary School in Newtown

    What can we do?

    We can start with looking at the dismantled Mental Health System
    I am in my late 50s and I remember when we had hospitals for those with severe mental issues. They closed them and left them to the County outpatient services.

    That was when the real homeless problem started. We have all been approached by homeless people. Notice you many are obviously mentally ill, self medicated etc?

    How many of these shooters are mentally ill ? most ! All?
    Look at columbine all most all of them were are psychotropic drugs
    Did you know these same drugs can make children psychotic ?
    (Watch the movie or read the book Prozac Nation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prozac_Nation)
    What about all,the service members coming back with Mental health issues? Who treats them ?

    We can't look at the tools used...we have to look for why.


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  11. #385
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    Man, you guys are starting to think on emotions, not with logic. I'm done checking out this thread.
    "Rebellion against tyrants is obedience to God." - Benjamin Franklin
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  12. #386
    Ex Member Array Ogien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Happypuppy View Post
    What can we do?

    We can start with looking at the dismantled Mental Health System
    I am in my late 50s and I remember when we had hospitals for those with severe mental issues. They closed them and left them to the County outpatient services.

    That was when the real homeless problem started. We have all been approached by homeless people. Notice you many are obviously mentally ill, self medicated etc?

    How many of these shooters are mentally ill ? most ! All?
    Look at columbine all most all of them were are psychotropic drugs
    Did you know these same drugs can make children psychotic ?
    (Watch the movie or read the book Prozac Nation Prozac Nation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)
    What about all,the service members coming back with Mental health issues? Who treats them ?

    We can't look at the tools used...we have to look for why.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
    You'll hear no argument from me as I know that you're right. The thing that I'm certain of is that one way or another this is going to result in some sort of new law and I think it would be better on all of us if we could put the rhetoric aside and come up with some sort of proposal from inside the gun owners community that doesn't completely dismantle our rites. If a law passes and we didn't propose anything and simply circle the wagons than this is gonna hurt a lot more than the alternative.

    Putting the obvious issues of mental illness aside and putting the emotions of this massacre (momentarily) aside, it's a catch 22 situation. We either show that we have a heart and understand there is a problem and we want to help fix it or we go all out "You can pry this gun from my cold dead hand" bit of theater. Question is, which looks more responsible and which is going to get more mileage among average, non armed, Americans who are quite scared for their children's safety and I don't think we can blame them.

  13. #387
    Ex Member Array CharlesMorri's Avatar
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    BREAKING: Shooting Connecticut Elementary School in Newtown

    Once again... You do not have the authority to bargain away my 2A rights.
    There is no new law that will prevent this or any future shooting incident and you better learn that one real quick.
    Dirtbags don't respect the law... Period!
    So who in their right mind would think that creating a new one will change anything?!

  14. #388
    Ex Member Array Ogien's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesMorri View Post
    Once again... You do not have the authority to bargain away my 2A rights.
    There is no new law that will prevent this or any future shooting incident and you better learn that one real quick.
    Dirtbags don't respect the law... Period!
    So who in their right mind would think that creating a new one will change anything?!
    Well you see, what you fail to realize is that I'm bargaining my 2A rights "away." I welcome you to be a spectator as you're not contributing anything useful to the conversation.

    Secondly it's a huge difference if the NRA were to come out with an olive branch to those out there who are scared for their kids safety.

    We as a community have the ability to offer an olive branch and show we've got a heart.
    brocktice likes this.

  15. #389
    Senior Member Array zamboni's Avatar
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    Think of this.

    A carpenter is building say…..a wooden box. If you’ll hang with me here I’m going somewhere with this.

    OK….So, he builds a wooden box. It is suppose to be evenly square, but it isn’t, it is obscenely off kilter, out of whack, and very oblong butt-ugly.

    Do you blame the tools the carpenter used? Is the pencil he used in his hand to draw a crooked line at fault? And is the saw he held in his hand at fault for cutting a crooked cut? Or is it the carpenter’s fault because he didn’t follow proper procedure?

    If there are already restrictive gun laws in place that prohibit someone from using a gun to commit a crime, or that restricts someone from legally obtaining or from owning or even simply possessing a gun and yet they still do, do you blame the gun laws? If you pile on more restrictive gun laws, will more gun laws stop someone whom has no regard for any excising gun laws at all in the first place follow any more new, more restrictive guns laws?

    Take for the sake of augment Chicago < sorry windy city>. It was or still is VERY illegal to even have a gun in your house there. Yet there are houses there that do. People within the city limits of Chicago are in fear for their lives to simply walk the streets in some areas of Chicago because of the gun violence in an area where it is totally against the law to simply have a gun in your possession, yet there are people who do.

    How much more restrictive can any gun law be?

    You can’t, if I am correct, even buy any bullets anywhere, with in the State of Illinois, without a permit!

    How much more restrictive can a gun law be?

    And yet Chicago is over run with illegal firearms and you want to make more gun laws more restrictive? The one’s in place now do not work.

    Please someone tell me how much more restrictive can you make a law then one that states: “YOU CAN NOT LEGALLY OWN OR POSSESS A GUN WITHIN CHICAGO'S CITY LIMITS”?

    If someone is DUI and they kill someone while driving drunk do you blame the car and the booze or the driver behind the wheel? We already have laws prohibiting that and yet, there are still people not only doing it, but some get off with just a slap on the wrist! If I’m not mistaking, more people are killed by drunk drivers then by firearms? So let’s outlaw cars and all types of alcoholic beverages too.

    So now some will say: “Well that is comparing avocados to walnuts”.

    Well the premise is the same. Someone committed an illegal act and they killed someone. Are you going to try to tell me that the sorrow of the parent's of any 5-yr old child is any less hard to cope with because they were run down by a drunk driver, then that of the parent's of those children killed in the school shooting in Connecticut?

    Those that are 2A Right avocets are not going to be able to ever reason in any ways shape or form with the anti’s……period! Let’s just hope that our law makers have enough sense to know when to leave well enough, somewhat alone! It is a no win situation for either side.

    Just like with that carpenter, any tool in the wrong hands isn’t to blame; it’s the hands that it is in at the use of that time.

    And taking any of those tools out of circulation isn’t going to stop crooked lines from being cut!

    There is no easy answer or ways of means, to explain that to any of the anti’s either. Because they do not want to hear it! They rant and rave it is our way or the highway. I'm guessing that the 2A Rights side is willing to listen though and I'm sure most if not all agree with reasonable restrictions such as those now in place. But, flat out banishment will not work.

    Now then let us all get back on track, and go back to working to save the financial train were all on, which is about to go over the cliff, and let the poor people victimized by the horrid event in Connecticut, morn in peace!!!

    PS: PLEASE DON'T FEED THE TROLLS
    msgt/ret and 1MoreGoodGuy like this.

  16. #390
    Distinguished Member Array brocktice's Avatar
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    Re: BREAKING: Shooting Connecticut Elementary School in Newtown

    Quote Originally Posted by CharlesMorri View Post
    Once again... You do not have the authority to bargain away my 2A rights.
    There is no new law that will prevent this or any future shooting incident and you better learn that one real quick.
    Dirtbags don't respect the law... Period!
    So who in their right mind would think that creating a new one will change anything?!
    The proposed solution need not bargain any rights away, but I do think there needs to be a constructive proposal. We have to be proactive or it will be decided without us. One such proposal is to arm and train a subset of teachers, for example. What other proposals could be put forward? Maybe requiring minimal safety education? That could actually help the industry and the community. I am open to suggestions. Scope restrictions or even official recommendations on how NOT to sensationalize these events? (Don't want to trample on 1A mind you.)
    Ogien likes this.

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