Could janitors be one school's line of defense?

Could janitors be one school's line of defense?

This is a discussion on Could janitors be one school's line of defense? within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Here's an intresting Associated Press article about several school districts across the nation and the steps many are taking to arm some of administrators, staff, ...

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    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Could janitors be one school's line of defense?

    Here's an intresting Associated Press article about several school districts across the nation and the steps many are taking to arm some of administrators, staff, and even teachers. Even with all the anti-banter going on many of our school board members are coming to the same conclusion we've been 'preaching' for years.......

    Could janitors be one school's line of defense? - Toshiba

    "We need more good guys with guns. That's the sad reality of the situation," said Jim Rigano, a Springboro school board member.
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

    (Sometimes) "a fight avioded is a fight won." ... claude clay


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    Member Array IronMike's Avatar
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    I don't know about all that… When I was in school, the janitor was about 108-year-old black man who drooled when he swept.
    Nowadays the school board hires developmentally challenged persons for janitorial work, I just don't think they would be my first choice.
    I know every area is different, and I don't have anything against hiring special needs people, but that just won't work here.
    It is pardonable to be defeated but never surprised.
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    It really depends on the janitor. When I was in elementary school I'd guess that the guy was
    a WWII combat vet. Not a pleasant fellow at all, and probably not someone a BG would successfully
    tangle with.

    But, plenty of janitors come from entirely different backgrounds and some I'm sure could not
    pass a TX CHL course.
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    Senior Member Array mano3's Avatar
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    It's an interesting idea, as the janitors are usually in the hallways and random places at random times.

    I guess it just depends on the person.
    surefire7 likes this.
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    Why not. The janitor I remember could clear a hallway when he rolled the puke cart in for another cleanup.
    PAPADALE1 and mano3 like this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Depends on the individual, irrespective of job function.

    Though, the "grey man" concept is important. Keeping a lower profile to retain the element of surprise has its benefits when speaking of armed faculty/staff, as well, same as with anyone else. In any school, I'd prefer a fair filtering/selection process be used to determine psychological, physical suitability to the task. A CHL's a necessary first filtering, legally speaking, but given the environment the training needs to be far more comprehensive than any CHL session is ever going to be.

    Janitor, admin weenie, teacher, hired security type ... sure, so long as the person is competent, responsible, basically suitable in the role of protector.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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    Most of the schools grounds around here are horribly open to easy access. It would take a large janitorial staff (or any other force) to provide actual preventive security versus reactive security. One guard, hired security, or Rambo can't be everywhere all the time.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    It wouldd take a large janitorial staff (or any other force) to provide actual preventive security versus reactive security.
    Important point.

    Which is why it's so critical to have defensible perimeters, few (or single) points of hardened ingress paths, sufficiently stout barriers between potential assailants and the folks being protected (including tougher windows, doors, cross-zone/corridor doors that can keep an assailant bottled up longer).

    No single solution's going to go very far. But without toughening the facilities, IMO, no other single change attempted is going to make a huge difference.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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    Schools typically have multiple entrys/exits for emergency purposes (fire and such), so other than having door that open from the inside only, it's tough to "seal off" an entire school. most have chainlink fences around them, but they mainly to keep the kids from wandering off during recess and to herd visitors toward the entrance. Someone with ill intent could easily climb over them. It's really tough to make a school "BG proof."
    BeefyG likes this.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Could we use janitors for SD in schools? If each had a CCW permit and some specialized training...sure!
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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Someone with ill intent could easily climb over them. It's really tough to make a school "BG proof."
    Understood. As you say, chain link fences and other similar "barriers" are to keep the upstanding kids in, not to keep anyone out.

    There are design elements that can effectively slow even determined assailants, even stopping most "average" assailants in their tracks and/or limiting them to key zones that have less value than others. But it requires windows, doors, access points tough enough and capable of being locked down quickly/hard enough to stop intruders. Many schools are doing the locked-door thang on interior doors, which is great, but it's not worth much if the door/frame isn't up to snuff, or if an assailant familiar with the facility knows that simply kicking in two sheets of drywall bypasses such doors. And windows are beautiful for getting light in, but sadly most windows are laughable barriers to entry unless selected of "hardened" materials. And no "castle wall" is going to stand long under determined assault if those walls aren't manned.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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    VIP Member Array shooterX's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Could we use janitors for SD in schools? If each had a CCW permit and some specialized training...sure!
    I support having armed individuals as a first line of defense against those that would harm our children, but completely agree that some specialized training needs to be a requirement. A thorough background check might not be a bad idea also.
    BugDude likes this.
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    It doesn't matter who is going to be allowed to carry in the school as long as it's a competent person who is physically capable of filling that role. Someone who at least qualifies and has a ccw permit.

    I don't care if it's non-school personnel. I'm a firm believer in how Isreal does it with a volunteer force of parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles. Basically, someone who has some skin in the game. Someone who has a family member as a student. You'll be more inclined to find a larger pool of people from the student body's relatives on a volunteer basis, than you will out of staff and faculty members. And there's nothing wrong with having both.

    Ensure they have a clean record, have their ccw permit, and then have them attend some sort of government sponsored training course designed specifically for being armed protectors in school (that takes care of any insurance liability issues for the school district). That's all you need to do.

    The thing is, word will get out. People will know everywhere that schools are no longer "gun free" zones. They will know that if they think they are going to waltz in and shoot up a school, that there will be armed staff, faculty, and even armed parents and other folks. Yep, no more "guaranteed free reign" in an open killing field.

    See how many school shootings we have then.

    Not only is it a no-brainer, it's really the most logical thing to do. (That is, if you really care about the childrens safety). Of course if your true agenda is to disarm law abiding citizens, then of course, those people refuse to see the logic and the facts.
    -Bark'n
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    Member Array violinjim's Avatar
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    With training, yes. Why not? My Janitor is a hunter so he's familiar with firearms. Most of the project crew is made up of hunters. My principal has his CCW. The gym teacher is a hunter, the other gym teacher worked as a customs officer. Every teacher I've spoken with believes that training and arming staff is ultimately the only thing that would stop a future Sandy Hook. And this is coming from Liberal NY.

    Jim
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    Agree with the extended training. Security also involves tactics or else the security risks becoming cannon fodder.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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