Not 100% CCW related but...

Not 100% CCW related but...

This is a discussion on Not 100% CCW related but... within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; it's still a story where it looks like the good guy "won" even if he was security and working.... Man, 18, killed in shooting Wilson ...

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Thread: Not 100% CCW related but...

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array raysheen's Avatar
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    Not 100% CCW related but...

    it's still a story where it looks like the good guy "won" even if he was security and working....


    Man, 18, killed in shooting

    Wilson Farms guard says he shot teen who aimed gun at him

    Steve Orr
    Staff writer

    (October 22, 2006) — A security guard who shot and killed an 18-year-old man told police the man had pointed a gun at him Friday night outside a market on Rochester's east side, police said.

    The man, identified by police as Michael Harris of Rochester, was pronounced dead at the scene.

    The 40-year-old security guard was working at the Wilson Farms market at 969 Bay St. He told investigators that he was approached by two men in or near the store's parking lot about 11 p.m. Friday, Rochester police said.

    One of the men pointed a rifle or shotgun at him. The guard fired his weapon and struck Harris a number of times, according to police.

    Police did not release the name of the security guard. They said he had a valid license for his firearm.

    The second male who approached the security guard fled the scene.

    The police investigation into the incident was continuing Saturday.

    The guard was not arrested.

    In past instances when fatal shootings in Monroe County appeared to be justified, the district attorney has presented evidence to a grand jury, which makes the ultimate decision on whether the shooter should be indicted and go to trial.

    In July, the owner of a Lyell Avenue bar shot and killed a man who he said tried to rob him with a gun. The bar owner, John "Paddy" Kitzel, 71, was cleared by a grand jury earlier this month.

    If Friday's case unfolds that way, it would mark the fourth justified homicide in Rochester this year.

    District Attorney Michael C. Green said he could not comment on the shooting until the investigation is complete.


  2. #2
    Member Array tnoisaw's Avatar
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    Looks like a justified shooting to me.
    Don't be a fool and die for your country. Let the other sonofabitch die for his.

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  3. #3
    Member Array PolarBear's Avatar
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    It sounds like a good shoot.
    I just hope for the guard's sake the police found the "rifle or shotgun" at the scene. If "the one that got away" took the gun with him, the guard may have some problems.
    Last edited by PolarBear; October 23rd, 2006 at 08:59 AM.
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  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    That was my first thought Polar.
    The article makes no mention of it aside from the victim stating there was one there so I'm going to bet it's in the wind with the other BG.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  5. #5
    VIP Member Array PatrioticRick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolarBear View Post
    I sound like a good shoot.
    I just hope for the guard's sake the police found the "rifle or shotgun" at the scene. If "the one that got away" took the gun with him, the guard may have some problems.
    I thought the same thing
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  6. #6
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    I'm with PolarBear!
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

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  7. #7
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    In past instances when fatal shootings in Monroe County appeared to be justified, the district attorney has presented evidence to a grand jury, which makes the ultimate decision on whether the shooter should be indicted and go to trial.

    What a jerk of a DA.

    If it appears JUSTIFIED, he sends it to a grand jury?!

    Why, because the only defense attorney in town is his brother-in-law or something, and he needs the money?

    What rationale is there for sending the defensive shooter before a grand jury when the DA himself believes a shooting appears justified. Essentially what they're saying then is that ALL shooters will face a grand jury, whether they are clearly murderers or by all appearances justified.

    Why not spare the guy who appears to have been justified in shooting the time, expense, and stress of having to go before a grand jury? I presume that the accused has to appear? (I don't know for sure) And that he would do well to hire an attorney to represent him? Or do you not get an attorney at a grand jury? How's that work?

    Either way, I think that if a DA thinks the guy fired justifiably, then it's unreasonable to make him go before the grand jury.

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    For all your worry, folks, it sounds like the guard should've just shot TWO guys to keep from being suspected of an unjustified shooting!

    The article says that the DA said it looked justified. I assume that might mean they found SOMETHING that made it sorta clear...

    But it says bad things if the difference between an indictment and a no-bill in such a case might be, "Did the accomplice manage to flee the scene, never to be found, with the weapon that caused the guard to shoot in the first place?"

  9. #9
    Member Array AZ Dog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    What a jerk of a DA.

    If it appears JUSTIFIED, he sends it to a grand jury?!

    Why, because the only defense attorney in town is his brother-in-law or something, and he needs the money?

    What rationale is there for sending the defensive shooter before a grand jury when the DA himself believes a shooting appears justified. Essentially what they're saying then is that ALL shooters will face a grand jury, whether they are clearly murderers or by all appearances justified.

    Why not spare the guy who appears to have been justified in shooting the time, expense, and stress of having to go before a grand jury? I presume that the accused has to appear? (I don't know for sure) And that he would do well to hire an attorney to represent him? Or do you not get an attorney at a grand jury? How's that work?

    Either way, I think that if a DA thinks the guy fired justifiably, then it's unreasonable to make him go before the grand jury.

    IANAL so I can't explain it in legal terms but in most cases it's a good thing that the DA takes it to a Grand Jury. If the Grand Jury comes back with a "no bill" it makes the shooting an "official" justified self-defense shooting. That really takes the air out of the sails for the potential plaintiffs in a civil suit.

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Well, in Florida at least (and in a growing number of states, I get the impression), the law now states that if a shooting is deemed to be in lawful self defense, they can't sue you anyway.

    I don't think you have to have been no-billed by a grand jury in order to have an attempt at a civil suit thrown out. I would imagine that a determination by the investigating law enforcement agency that you were justified in using deadly force in self defense would be enough. But IANAL either...

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array raysheen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    Either way, I think that if a DA thinks the guy fired justifiably, then it's unreasonable to make him go before the grand jury.
    I feel the same way and I'm wondering if there is some reason that this is done. Maybe all homicides of any type have to go to the grand jury? Just seems weird and you would think that the DA would want the power to say yea or nay on big cases...I wouldn't be surprised if it's just another NY oddity.

    The DA has come out to say that he believes the shooting was, in fact, justified and that he is now sending the case to the grand jury. I wonder if it would be possible to actually get a convicition in a case if the DA made a public statement that he thinks the shooting is justified....normally I would say no but this isn't exactly a "free" state so I hope the grand jury agrees with the DA's decision.

  12. #12
    Member Array Only Glock's Avatar
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    A "no true bill" or a "refusal to indict" brings into play the Double Jeopardy protection under the Constitution. Simply put, down the road, the D.A. can't be pressured into prosecuting the case, or trying to prosecute it to make a point, etc. This is in part for the protection of the shooter. A potential defendant is not required, and I believe in some states, cannot appear before the grand jury unless under subpoena, and the D.A. can direct the grand jury to indict or not indict as he sees fit. It is much easier (I have been told) for a D.A. to direct a grand jury to NOT indict when he directs them, than it is for a D.A. to get an indictment when there is not enough evidence in the grand jury's opinion, to justify an indictment.

    I am not a lawyer, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night... (I just had to say that part). I took some con-law classes at U.T., and have some experience with the courts as an LEO, so you can take what I say with a grain of salt.

    Charlie
    When you are truly transformed into a warrior and have truly invested yourself into warriorhood, you want to be there. You want to be able to make a difference.
    From the essay "TRIBES" by Bill Whittle

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    I work with a woman who just finished serving on a federal grand jury in Florida. She had to report once a week (except some weeks when they had to switch off with another grand jury due to limited court space) for 18 MONTHS!

    You read that right. 18 months was the term of service, during which they reviewed innumerable cases.

    The subject came up last night because of a discussion I was having with a different woman about guns/cars, and the dangers presented by each. This woman came over and gave me pretty clear indication that she's not anti-gun. It was subtle, but present.

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