This is a discussion on Pit bull Attack within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Bravo, Judgew7!...
I had a German Shepherd / Collie mix that was a better retriever than my current retriever. She did it instinctually whilst I'm having to train my current Black Lab. He doesn't get the part about how he's supposed to bring back what I shoot, though he'll carry random stuff around in his mouth. He's 2 to 3 years old and I've about given up on him when it comes to this. I've been consistent, and he only retrieves when he wants to.
On the other hand, my GSD never, ever, not once, bit, even in play. If you'd try to wrestle with her, she'd get free, run to get one of her toys, and stand by the door to go out and play "fetch."
Then again, she was a Lassie-type dog. I've not seen another like her, except for a Chocolate Lab we had for a short time that died of a brain aneurism brought on by, we think, a hot summer. She was out playing and just keeled over.
I've had lots of dogs... including more than one pit. I've been around dogs of all breeds for years. It's not the dog that's bad. It's the owner. I have been bit way more than once in life. My pits were very well trained and never bit anyone. Breed specific laws are racism for dogs. Nothing more nothing less. The English Bulldog I have now is way moodier than any of them.
As reported today via CNN:
Tiny terrier saved kids from pit bulls
POSTED: 3:59 p.m. EDT, May 2, 2007
WELLINGTON, New Zealand (AP) -- A plucky Jack Russell terrier named George saved five children from two marauding pit bulls, but was so severely mauled in the fight that it had to be put down, its owner said Wednesday.
George, a 9-year-old Jack Russell terrier, fought off two pit bulls, saving five children
George was playing with the group of children as they returned home from buying sweets at a neighborhood shop in the small North Island town of Manaia last Sunday when the two pit bulls appeared and lunged toward them, Allan Gay said.
"George was brave -- he took them on and he's not even a foot high," Gay told The Associated Press. "He jumped in on them, he tried to keep them off.
"If it wasn't for George, those kids would have copped it."
One of the children, Richard Rosewarne, 11, was quoted in the Taranaki Daily News on Wednesday as saying George fought with the pit bulls to keep them off his 4-year-old brother, Darryl.
"George tried to protect us by barking and rushing at them, but they started to bite him -- one on the head and the other on the back," Rosewarne said. "We ran off crying and some people saw what was happening and rescued George."
But George was so badly mauled that a veterinarian had to put him down, Gay said.
South Taranaki District Council official Graham Young said the two pit bulls had been impounded, and likely would be put down because of the attack.
In New Zealand, owners of dogs judged to be too aggressive can be required to have them neutered and dogs involved in attacks are destroyed.
The article can be found at; http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapc....ap/index.html
- Janq generally likes AST/APTs but have learned from experiences to generally not trust the training and behavioral management of all dog owners who are strange to me
Racism? Animals aren't people, and don't have any rights (except not to be the object of cruelty of course). Don't be silly.
Pro-putbull people always cry "it's the owner, not the dog!" But what we seem to be seeing is far too many bad owners with these dangerous dogs. What happens when you have a bad owner with a chihuahua? At the very worst, you'll get a mean little dog that bites peoples' ankles and gets kicked across the room. But a bad owner with a pitbull? You have news reports of people being killed.
As I've said before, I think people should be personally liable for their dogs' actions. If a pitbull kills a person, its owner should go to prison for murder 1. Would you pit owners be willing to support such a law?
We already have strict regulation for other dangerous activities in this country, such as aviation. Can you hop into a plane and start flying without a license (which requires months of intensive and expensive training)? Hell no: if you crash in a populated area, you'll probably kill someone on the ground. If the pitbull owners can't keep their dogs under control, maybe this is what we need. Or just the "dog is an extension of yourself and presumed to be operating under your orders" rule I mentioned before, which would probably make large-dog ownership very unpopular.
In defense of Pit Bulls: years ago they were just generic neighborhood dogs, and we really didn't know they could be so nasty. Kids played with them, they hung out with the other dogs, and there were no problems. Most were probably bought because of the dog in the "Our Gang" comedies.
Today, there are some I know that are just sweethearts, and others meaner than a snake. I'm not sure what is going on, but I suspect the biggest part of the problem lies with the people who own these dogs. However, I would not buy one.
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
I almost got in trouble with the shotgun blast too, since I was in city limits and firing a gun is illegal within city limits. What I learned is, don't ever use a gun to scare off a vicious dog; kill it instead.
as a former owner of a pitbull, i would say yes to jail time. murder 1? that's a hard one. you'd have to prove that the owner sent the dog to kill the victim specifically. but murder 2? most definitely, but i think it should apply to ALL breeds of dogs, not just pitbulls. there are plenty of others out there just as, if not more, capable of killing a person. if i recall, there was a couple, i think in san fransisco, who were charged with murder 2 after their dogs, presa canario mastiffs, attacked a neighbor. i think they were convicted of involuntary manslaughter.
it figures, though, that 'law & order' would do an episode based on the case, but change the breed of dog to pitbulls.
I've owned mostly medium and small dogs in my life, with the largest being a bull terrier. He was always HIGHLY energetic, and this was with myself and my brother (14 and 7, at the time we got him) running him around our fenced in yard for hours a day after school. He was never violent, and we had no problems with the neighborhood kids coming over and tossing the tennis ball. However, he *was* prone to jumping the 4' chainlink fence, and caused us to chase him around the neighborhood on our bikes on several occasions. We didn't worry about him attacking anyone while he was out and about, we were just worried about our dog getting hit by a car or something.
My mom was less enthused with his indoor manners, though - he was known for chewing and destroying the oak coffee tables, along with anything else he could get his jaws around... shoes, toys, his bowl... you name it. I think the biggest problem with the breed is that it's so highly energetic, like a jack russell. They get antsy if you don't exercise them, and either become destructive or aggressive, depending on their upbringing. I will say, that the only dogs that have ever actually bitten or snapped at me (and actually meant it...) have all weighed under 20 pounds, and it has never been without warning.
My wife's chihuahua (well, our chihuahua, since we got married) will nip at my hands or side if she doesn't like the way she's being petted, or if she feels threatened - like if my 275 pound self rolls over in the bed and she is right there. That's all, just a little "hey, stop that!" nip.
I've never had a big dog do that - they just walk away, or lie down and fart. What I'm getting at here, is that I come from the school of thought that ALL dogs descend from wild creatures, and are not that far removed - maybe only a few dozen generations, in some cases. We, as pet owners, breeders, and trainers, are responsible for subduing the characteristics of an animal we don't desire to be a part of its demeanor. If this isn't done, the dog does what it knows - hunt. Even if a pet is raised properly, if it is neglected long enough, it will not just stay in the yard and starve. Eventually, it will do what it must to survive. Any dog that has attacked a human or other animal was either not taught otherwise, or has rejected training and reverted to its survival instincts - or was provoked, and was defending himself or his family (human, canine, or otherwise).
I have heard that pit bulls have a difference in their brain chemistry that makes them "turn" at a certain age. I have one next door that I have seen grow up and I believe it is true. It was just another dog as a pup, but when I grew up it became agressive and violent. I am glad the idiots next door finally got the message and chain it now. BTW, in this town pit bulls are banned, but when asked the owners say it is a boxer mix or other breed and the officals buy it.
All owners should be responsible for the actions of their pets. In my region the owner must have 100k of liability insurance for any large breed dog. Not just Pits. I can't even legally own a Presa.
First off most people wouldn't recognize an actual APBT. The breed like most others, has been mixed with "fighting" dogs of other breeds for years. Now what most people have are mutts. Pure Pits have been shown and used in "working" shows. I have been in field with a couple hundred more than once. Now did I fear for my safety.Uh no. Now if I was in a field of 200 random dogs it would be allot worse. The work and training the dog is capable of is amazing.
Less savory people use "line breeding" to manufacture fighting dogs. This is still a big thing in the US and needs to be stopped. Drug dealers have them "silenced" so they can't bark when the no knock comes. If you look at dog bite statistics anywhere in the us you will see it's not just pits. I have seen many dogs classified as the wrong breed simply because they guy at the pound is working for 8.00 and hour and has no training. Sorry this is so long but I expected a group of my peers would be the first people to understand blanket legislation is not the answer.
I'm no fan of the pitbull, but I understand its the dog in the hands of the less desriable people that give the dog a bad name. It would not matter if it was a pit , a rott, a GSD or a foo foo golden retriever. The pit just happens to be popular in music videos right now, so thats what they all want.
"Just blame Sixto"
We as people all have opinions. When you state an opinion it is not a fact unless you back it up with first hand accounts and data. Has anyone here ever worked in a Vet clinic ? Been involved in a dog attack? Has anyone ever shown dogs UKC or AKC or CKC? Has anyone ever been part of a dog "rescue" program? Is anyone here qualified to train dogs? When we start saying things like " I heard" or "my neighbor" it's opinion ..at best,,. There are so many dog myths out there it would take me a week to talk about all of them.
I own firearms. My neighbor does not. He asked me how I got my machine gun (AR) and If I had one of those guns that went right through a metal detector (glock). People as a whole are sheep and will follow the popular opinion regardless of fact.
I'm willing to discus anything with anyone.
Never argue with an idiot. They drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.
My grandmother for over 20 yrs. bred ASTs and I grew up from single digits handling her 'work dogs' and 'house dogs' of which were always a mix of AST and GSDs.
In the day they were in my zone relatively rare and not often seen. They are by nature an extremely kind and dare I say soft hearted breed. From what I've seen though now days (90s and forward) as they got to be stupid popular we have breeders purposefully breeding aggressive animals to other aggresives and if they show defiance or fearlessness toward humans then thats all the better. In the past those kind of dogs would be culled or neutered or not sold or even shown but retained by the breeder.
As well the size of these animals have exploded! The breed standard calls for males to be IIRC roughly 80 pounds at the extreme top end and 70 for females of same. Now days go to an AST/APT get together or tough guy show and it's not unusual to see them at 100lbs. + male or female. As well people are running their dogs on treadmills and engaging them in dog pull contests against each other to further develop and reward aggression.
Similar occurred in decades prior to the GSD, Doberman, and Rottweiler which themselves are all great breeds and are normally extremely friendly regardless of their size or 'looking scary'. Recal in the late 70s and 80s all the movies and features toward Dobermans as they were marketed by the media to be 'devil dogs' and such. Those times have passed and they are no longer the street tough popular dog like they were when I growing up but still folk are afraid of them thanks to the bad rap the breed got 30 yrs. ago now due to poor and bad ownership.
Aside from 'pitbulls' the other popular breed amongst toughs was the Rottie through the late 80s and 90s and they still are though to a significantly lesser degree since folk picked up on the pitbull and today another that is popular simply because it resembles a pit but is physically much larger is the Mastiff and Bull Mastiff. Again owned by wannabe street toughs sporting wife beaters or XX long tees who know little about proper training and I've _never_ seen in any of the numerous dog training or dog sport classes & events I've been to including having them held at my own home.
Possibly 10 or 20 yrs. from now the wannabe tough people will pickup on some other breed such as the Fila Brasileiro which today is very rare in America (I've seen just 5 examples in person), the Japanese Tosa Ken and Akita (which I own and have been for decades a friend & fancier of), or even the King Shepherd.
As I see it the problem is not the breed but the individual owners whos individual dogs that have been involved in incidents are trained via positive or negative reinforcement to become aggressive if not destructive terrors as they are. Dogs are very much like retarded children. They'll do what you tell them if you provide good and consistent direction with positive reinforcement for good and a strong corrective hand toward mistakes. Let them free to do whatever and/or raise themselves then well pretty much any dog can then be a danger to ones neighborhood if not themselves be they large or small. As well there are also issues with inbreeding and carrying forward in ones line of psychological issues (e.g. dog crazy) which just as with humans can be carried in a family lines genes forward to future pups. Most breeders of repute know this and look out for as much to remove those from their line. But as it goes with humans not everyone acts right or as they should morally & ethically.
It's a damn shame that such a fine and normally friendly breed has been so maligned and outright victimized. :(
A decade or two ago I'd buy one without a second thought, from a reputable breeder such as was my grandmother. Today I'm sad to say, no way.