Minn. Farmer Charged After Chasing Thief

Minn. Farmer Charged After Chasing Thief

This is a discussion on Minn. Farmer Charged After Chasing Thief within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Not really a success story, but it brings up the discussion about holding criminals at gunpoint. My belief is that the following is what is ...

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Thread: Minn. Farmer Charged After Chasing Thief

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Minn. Farmer Charged After Chasing Thief

    Not really a success story, but it brings up the discussion about holding criminals at gunpoint. My belief is that the following is what is likely to happen anytime you use your concealed weapon to detain somebody. That is why I will only use mine to shoot the BG. I won't shoot the BG unless a human life is threatened. When I decide to show my gun, it will only ever be to shoot the BG. Otherwise, it stays in its holster. YMMV

    Food for thought.

    Linky.

    Minn. Farmer Charged After Chasing Thief

    Friday, February 02, 2007

    CAMBRIDGE, Minn. —
    A farmer who chased down a thief and held him at gunpoint until authorities arrived now faces a more serious charge than the thief himself.

    Kenneth Englund, 74, was charged with second-degree assault, a felony. The thief, who the sheriff said admitted stealing about $5 worth of gasoline from Englund's neighbor, was charged with misdemeanor theft.

    Sheriff Mike Ammend said people can't take the law into their own hands, and that Englund's actions were "an invitation to a shootout. There's so many things that could have gone wrong here."

    On Oct. 15, Englund pointed a gun at Christian Harris Smith, 28, and a woman at the vacant farm next to Englund's place in Bradford Township. He then chased their vehicle at speeds of 70 mph, according to the criminal complaint. A 3-year-old child was in the vehicle.

    During the chase, Englund used a cell phone to call the sheriff's office and asked if he should "blow them away," according to the complaint. His shotgun turned out to be unloaded.

    Englund, a Township Board member for 37 years, pleaded not guilty, was released without having to post bail and is to return to court Feb. 22.

    Smith was charged with another theft and was held in the county jail on a felony warrant from another state.

    Prosecutor Dan Conlin said no one is looking to put Englund in jail. He said the charge fits the facts, but the case doesn't need to be resolved as a felony.

    More than 350 people attended a fundraising dinner for Englund last month and a petition has circulated supporting him.

    Bradford Township, about 45 miles north of Minneapolis, does not have a police force, and Englund said criminals can escape by the time a deputy arrives from Cambridge, 15 miles away.

    Copyright 2007 The Associated Press.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.


  2. #2
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    Englund used a cell phone to call the sheriff's office and asked if he should "blow them away," according to the complaint.
    That in itself if true - is decidedly damning IMO! Plus the chase etc - all seems very excessive and ''wannabe cop'' type behavior.

    I do not think tho that using a firearm to detain has to be either impossible or necessarily something to get charged for .......... it will all depend on circumstances and justification.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yep, another case of being old enough to know better.

    This is same in concept to the case from weeks ago where the guy with an AR chased down and detained some drunk drivers who had hit his fence then left the scene.

    The town not having a police force does not authorize him to deputize himself at his whim.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    VIP Member Array Tom G's Avatar
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    This farmer sounds like he is trigger happy. Its a good thing he didn't get a shot or he could have been charged with murder. I bet this guy didn't have a ccw. If he did its gone now due to no common sense. He could have wrecked and hurt or killed some one.

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    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Tom,

    Imagine the havoc if the couple he was chasing had wrecked, into someone else (!), and injured the 3 yr. old as well as the innocents in the car they had hit.

    Dude is very fortunate...and very stupid.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    I do not think tho that using a firearm to detain has to be either impossible or necessarily something to get charged for .......... it will all depend on circumstances and justification.
    I suppose you are right. I just cannot imagine circumstances where detainment would be the reason for me to pull out my gun and point it at a person. I have decided for myself that the gun is purely a defensive tool. Detainment is not part of my normal defense strategy.

    As I understand it, the power to detain and/or apprehend is one of the little things that grants police authority over citizens.

    Citizen's arrest, as far as I know, is not something that can be carried out fully unless a LEO is present to do the detainment part.

    Anybody know the law on this? I wonder if there are stats on armed citizens detaining criminals and prosecution rates for their having done so. I bet they are low given that it would be hard for a prosecutor to get a jury to convict a righteous capture of a dangerous criminal. In the case above, it would seem that the prosecutor has an easy case. Even I can see where it's not right to point a gun at somebody for stealing 5 gallons of gas.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

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    As I said - circumstances will totally alter events but - just as an imaginary situation ......

    You are caught up in a place where an armed BG stomps in and starts waving his gun around, and as the threat is totally real you draw and are about to shoot. However the BG is fortunately a whimp and not one of those wishing to actually use his gun ........ he sees you draw and aim and immediately drops his gun and puts hands up.

    Here is where I feel I could justifiably hold that guy at gun point until the cavalry arrives - and feel easier too that I have not had to ventilate him and all that might follow that.
    Chris - P95
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    VIP Member Array havegunjoe's Avatar
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    Not defending him because he did everything wrong, but I think his intentions were good. Remember, this guy is 74. He comes from a time when you helped your neighbor and nobody sued you for it. From what I have read in previous articles he is an upstanding member of his community too. You and I know we would have just called this in to police and not chased after the crooks at 70 mph as well as kept our mouths shut to 911. Too bad everyone doesn't know what we know about the law pertaining to guns.
    DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.

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    Distinguished Member Array lowflyer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by P95Carry View Post
    As I said - circumstances will totally alter events but - just as an imaginary situation ......

    You are caught up in a place where an armed BG stomps in and starts waving his gun around, and as the threat is totally real you draw and are about to shoot. However the BG is fortunately a whimp and not one of those wishing to actually use his gun ........ he sees you draw and aim and immediately drops his gun and puts hands up.

    Here is where I feel I could justifiably hold that guy at gun point until the cavalry arrives - and feel easier too that I have not had to ventilate him and all that might follow that.
    Yeah, I guess I can see holding him at that point. However, the BG would have to be extremely quick and decisive about whimping out. That would require him to know that I have a gun trained on him before I pulled the trigger. If he is threatening or harming another person, he might not be afforded that luxury.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

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    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    Based on the details in the story, this guy is not being charged simply because he held the thief at gunpoint. He is being charged because he pursued the thief, then threatened the use of deadly force over a minor property crime. If he hadn't pursued the suspect, and if the suspect had broken into his house, or threatened someone with grave bodily injury or death, then holding the guy at gunpoint wouldn't have been a legal problem.

    I'm not saying it's a good idea, and it's not something that I would try to do, but this guy did so many things wrong that I don't think the case really says anything useful about the legal consequences of trying to hold someone at gunpoint.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blackeagle View Post
    I don't think the case really says anything useful about the legal consequences of trying to hold someone at gunpoint.
    I don't think this case does either, but then the laws where I live are pretty clear. Pointing a gun at somebody in anything but a purely defensive scenario is mostly considered aggravated assault. Whether you would be charged would depend upon the circumstances, the mood of the DA, etc...

    I have to ask anybody; what would you do if you were holding a BG at gunpoint and he ran off? I have never been faced with this, but I think most BGs would flip you the bird, turn and run off.
    Whatever doesn't kill you postpones the inevitable.

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    I think most BGs would flip you the bird, turn and run off.
    I think you are dead on correct!! In which case all we could do then is be the best witness possible. Altho maybe the ''whimp'' status BG in my example might just be docile enough to stay firmly in place
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    An Alarming Felony Arrest in Cambridge MN

    Wanted to make everyone aware of this recent situation in Minnesota. Hopefully NRA or other groups can assist this farmer. Here is the link......
    http://www.suntimes.com/news/nation/...rmer03.article

    Taurus

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    I'm not sure injecting deadly force into a $5.00 gasoline theft situation on your neighbor's property is going to have NRA lawyers jumping in their Lear Jets to defend. Even if he had a carry permit he had none of the elements necessary to use a gun unless this short news story is leaving out a lot of important details. Did the BG point a gun at somebody while stealing the gas?

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    Even in Texas (I would presume), someone running down a thief of $5 in gasoline would be hard-pressed to explain commenting to the 911/police dispatcher "shall I blow them away" while chasing a car with a family in it. Can't imagine MN would be any kinder.

    Pride + ego + gun + loss of control = jail, like as not.

    Though, in his defense: not a bad effort, for a 74 yr old.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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