Soldier Shoots, Kills Burglar Stealing Guns - Page 4

Soldier Shoots, Kills Burglar Stealing Guns

This is a discussion on Soldier Shoots, Kills Burglar Stealing Guns within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; As a retired 1sgt cbt arms I thank you for your service....

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  1. #46
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    As a retired 1sgt cbt arms I thank you for your service.
    God Bless our troops,Pass the ammo
    carry guns,g30,g39
    1911,colt defender 90 / .45
    OLD F##T W/ .45:
    my avater is part of the reason i feel the way i do.


  2. #47
    Member Array austin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    IIRC that determination can only be made by the Post commander or possibly by the major unit commander of the post. ....
    As I recall, a Field Grade Officer can authorize a soldier to carry concealed as part of their uniform. There are some forms to fill out and a copy of the order has to be carried on your person.

  3. #48
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Question Hmmmmm

    Quote Originally Posted by austin View Post
    As I recall, a Field Grade Officer can authorize a soldier to carry concealed as part of their uniform. There are some forms to fill out and a copy of the order has to be carried on your person.
    So any major can tell anybody they can carry concealed, cut a copy of the "orders" and that's it? There were a whole lot of Majors at Fort Lewis when I was there. S'pose there is an official DA or DoD policy or heck even a POST order (established by the post commander). Does the major get to trump any of them? All the field grade officers I ever knew (myself but a lowly captain) had one thing in common. They had "STARS" in their eyes. They all wanted to make it to General. Where did you hear this? Can you quote a UCMJ reg? Or is this the policy at a post where you have experience? I could see SpecOps folks having this discretion. They would act outside of any post or conventional chain of command.

    BTW, Austin...Welcome to the FORUM!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  4. #49
    Member Array sjp2452's Avatar
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    Phaed, thanks for your story. Detail question, if I may--did you make any verbal contact with the BG before firing? The reason I ask is that one of my fears has always been that failure to do so would have a prosecutor about 10ft up my backside if I didn't give verbal warning...and yet tactically it's rather disadvantageous to give away your position to someone who may be armed. It would help me to know if, based on your understanding, what aspect of the law protects you from said intrusive prosecutors (assuming that you made no verbal contact). Is it the Castle doctrine itself, or other general law regarding use of lethal force in self defense?

    Either way, glad your ok and have LE (apparently) on your side. Thanks again for posting your account of this, and God bless you for serving our country!

  5. #50
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    You're alive and well, and that's what matters. One more felon off the streets.

    Good job on surviving what could have quickly turned extremely ugly, given that he was very likely armed with (at least) your stolen .45 pistol.

    Thank you for the frank details. It helps put things into perspective, in terms how how easily it is for intruders to gain access, how easy it is for guns to fall into the wrong hands.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  6. #51
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink ROE's for Citizens Are Different...

    Quote Originally Posted by sjp2452 View Post
    Phaed, thanks for your story. Detail question, if I may--did you make any verbal contact with the BG before firing? The reason I ask is that one of my fears has always been that failure to do so would have a prosecutor about 10ft up my backside if I didn't give verbal warning...and yet tactically it's rather disadvantageous to give away your position to someone who may be armed. It would help me to know if, based on your understanding, what aspect of the law protects you from said intrusive prosecutors (assuming that you made no verbal contact). Is it the Castle doctrine itself, or other general law regarding use of lethal force in self defense?
    Citizens are not held to the same standard as police officers in cases of lawful self defense.

    When I was a State of Florida Parole and Probation Officer I frequently asked the felons I supervised what they did if they thought a potential victim was armed with a gun. I got it from one of my "clients" thusly: A cop has to try and make a BUST before he shoots. And that's cool wit me. I can always go for "3 HOTS and a COT" during a little vacation jail time. But a citizen? Worried you might be goin't to cap him or hurt his wife? Man, that dude will kill you cold and ain't NOBODY in dis BIDNESS to git kilt! That is an exact quote btw.

    The FL State Attorney's Office in Miami backed him up, too. In short, the citizen is under no requirement to try and attempt to verbally challenge or effect a "citizen's arrest" if he reasonably believes his life is in danger of imminent death or great bodily harm.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  7. #52
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    One question though, how have the parents of the scumbag reacted to this?
    i haven't spoken to them. the only pieces of information like that are from 3rd parties. on a local newspaper message board there was a guy talking retribution smack, suggesting he was either a friend or family. a family member was quoted in a paper as saying he was the proverbial good kid trying to turn his life around.

    the LEO's said the parents were older, mature individuals, and didn't expect any negative reactions, and there have been none.
    Did the police know the criminal; was he a gang member?
    this is a very good question, and one i asked that same night. one of the detectives there that night knew the criminal from a prior arrest. to their knowledge, he was not a gang member. he had no brothers. he does have a very young son. maybe i'll need to look out for him 10 years down the road.

    either way, i've taken extra precautions. i now have an alarm system. i put up 360 degree video coverage i can view from anywhere with an inet connection. the afore mentioned safes, and i've rearranged my house and habits to not be vulnerable to street (drive-by) attacks.

    Detail question, if I may--did you make any verbal contact with the BG before firing?
    absolutely not

  8. #53
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    I almost didn't believe the story at first... but with the detail he provided, answering of questions.. his avatar and apparent situational awareness I believe that's him.

    Phaed:
    I am very happy to hear that you were unharmed and you got your belongings back. I only can wish that one day, should this ever happen to me, that I will be as clear minded as you apparently were.

    Thank you you for sharing your story. I'm glad you are a part of our great forum.

    And most of all, Thank you Sir, for your service.

    SD
    Lakeland, FL

    -PS- very interesting about the GA Castle Doctrine extending to all 4 corners of your lot. I think in FL its just your home. I need to go re-read and find out.
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  9. #54
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    There is no requirement for an LEO to make a verbal challenge prior to using deadly force, if the situation otherwise justifies such force. It is policy in many agencies to make a verbal challenge, as long as this challenge does not increase the risk to the officer. I can't see this non-requirement being imposed on non-LEOs, either. (Well, actually, with some prosecuters the way they are, I can see this attempted, but it should be shot down quite easily...)
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Wink Actually...

    Quote Originally Posted by floridaguy911 View Post
    -PS- very interesting about the GA Castle Doctrine extending to all 4 corners of your lot. I think in FL its just your home. I need to go re-read and find out.
    Actually, in FL it extends to the STREET for CCW carry. If you are anyplace lawfully and you are allowed to be lawfully armed in that place under the FL CCW law and you are attacked, you no longer have to retreat. The standard is would a reasonable man in the same situation would be led to believe that his life was in imminent danger of being lost or suffering great bodily harm? Under these circumstances, you are justified in standing your ground and meeting force with force.

    FURTHER, if your use of force is justified any prosecutor who might seek to gain political points by indicting you on a charge he knows won't hold up just to act as a deterrence to other citizens (an old trick used by Janet Reno) by driving a victim into bankruptsy on his defense....the prosecutors are BARRED from indictment by law.

    ALSO the family of the (hopefully) deceased attacker or the wounded perp himself is barred from any civil lawsuit. This was the first law of it's type in the nation and still proves to be the national model. I personally lobbied Jeb Bush to pass and sign the law in this exact form.
    Last edited by ExSoldier; July 9th, 2007 at 09:57 PM. Reason: format
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier View Post
    Actually, in FL it extends to the STREET for CCW carry. If you are anyplace lawfully and you are allowed to be lawfully armed in that place under the FL CCW law and you are attacked, you no longer have to retreat. The standard is would a reasonable man in the same situation would be led to believe that his life was in imminent danger of being lost or suffering great bodily harm? Under these circumstances, you are justified in standing your ground and meeting force with force.
    Very succinct and correct. This is the law now in Florida, as of what, October last year? Or was it October the year before?

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Lightbulb

    Quote Originally Posted by peacefuljeffrey View Post
    Very succinct and correct. This is the law now in Florida, as of what, October last year? Or was it October the year before?
    As of OCT last year. It's not yet been legally tested, to my knowledge.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  13. #58
    Member Array Protect's Avatar
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    Oklahoma passed a *similar* law, effective last November. It's not as clear as you say yours is.

    F. A person who uses force, as permitted pursuant to the provisions of subsections B and D of this section, is justified in using such force and is immune from criminal prosecution and civil action for the use of such force. As used in this subsection, the term “criminal prosecution” includes charging or prosecuting the defendant.
    G. A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force, but the law enforcement agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
    H. The court shall award reasonable attorney fees, court costs, compensation for loss of income, and all expenses incurred by the defendant in defense of any civil action brought by a plaintiff if the court finds that the defendant is immune from prosecution as provided in subsection F of this section.
    Phaed,
    Thanks for your post, I'm glad everything turned out in your favor.
    Most of all, Thank You for your service.
    "When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer himóby force.
    "... No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array miklcolt45's Avatar
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    Wow, Phaed,

    Gripping account. Very glad that you are safe.

    Thanks for letting us know the details on this.
    It really makes it hit home that the choices we make are for keeps.

    Thanks for your service.

    Mike
    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliott

    The world is a dangerous place to live; not because of the people who are evil, but because of the people who don't do anything about it.
    Albert Einstein

  15. #60
    Member Array DaveT's Avatar
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    Phaed,

    Many others here have already echoed what I'm thinking, but let me also say thank you. Thank you for your sharing this first hand account of the shoot with us, and thank you also for your service to our country.

    The points that you outlined towards the end of your post should be required reading in every concealed carry course..... there is nothing better than suggestions and advice from someone who has been there.

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