This is a discussion on Close Call within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by limatunes
As a wife checking into this I'll give you my take.
I know that a punk calling a good man's wife ...
May 9th, 2007 03:25 PM
sigh....will you marry me?
Originally Posted by limatunes
j/k husband of Lima
May 9th, 2007 03:25 PM
May 9th, 2007 03:27 PM
That's great news, I'm glad you didn't take our help as criticism.
Originally Posted by harley91
May 9th, 2007 03:42 PM
I've been carrying for about six months now, and on this forum for a little longer, and I have to say that I have learned a hell of a lot by participating in discussions here and listening to what people have to say. The criticism can be a little harsh sometimes, but we are dealing with serious life or death issues here that deserve complete candor. I'm glad that you seem to be taking it in the spirit I am sure it was intended, as constructive criticism to help you (and all of us reading about your experience) react better if it ever comes up again.
Others have already covered deescalation and avoidance quite well, so I won't go on about that. I think you'll find that most people here (including me) are staunch advocates of carrying a round in the chamber. These situations can develop very vast (from your description this incident seemed to) and you may not always have the luxury of time to rack the slide.
This disturbs me a bit on two levels. First and foremost, the guy was armed with a contact weapon (a baseball bat). Was he really an imminent threat to you at 50 feet? The standard for a guy armed with a knife is called the 21 foot rule. If he's within 21 feet, there's a very good chance of him getting to you before you can draw and fire. Your opponent was considerably further away, and you already had your gun out (no need to draw). As long as he's that far away, there doesn't really seem to be a need for you to shoot him.
Originally Posted by harley91
Second, I am somewhat concerned that you don't feel like you can hit a human sized target 50 feet away. It's true that most self defense takes place at close range (often within 10 feet), but there are situations where you may have to shoot further. For instance, what if this guy had retrieved a firearm from his trunk rather than a basebal bat? If he started shooting at you from that distance and you weren't able to return fire effectively, you would've been in a very bad situation. Now this doesn't mean you have to be able to take headshots at 100 yards, but you should be able to hit a torso sized target at 50 feet. I'm not exactly a crack shot myself, but every time I go to the range, I run a target down to the 25 yard line (which is both as far out as the range goes, and as far as I'm really confident in my ability to hit) and shoot a magazine at it. I do this both for practice, and to convince myself that I really can hit that far out.
I don't know what sort of firearms experience you've got, but if you haven't had any, I would recommend you seek out some good defensive handgun training. The training required to get your CCW permit in most states seems to be intended to convince the real idiots that they can't get into gunfights over parking spaces (yes, some people in those classes are that stupid), rather than teaching anyone how to realistically defend themselves with a handgun. There are probably local trainers in your area, there are big-name trainers that travel around the country giving classes like Massad Ayoob, Gabe Suarez, and John Farnam, and there are the big-name schools like Gunsite and Thunder Ranch. Good training can be expensive (particularly the big-name trainers and schools) but I really think that everyone who carries a concealed weapon ought to get as much of it as time and money affords.
May 9th, 2007 03:55 PM
My take, first don't answer back to verbal abuse, it just escalates the situation which negates your claim to self defense in a lot of states. I tell my students that when you are having a really bad day and some idiot gives you the finger for no apparent reason he is just saying you are #1 in his book. Forget about it and move on.
Two, no round in the chamber means you are carrying a very expensive rock. You may not always have time to chamber a round.
Three, call LE immediately after the threat leaves. Make sure your story is heard first in the way you want it to be heard.
DEMOCRACY IS TWO WOLVES AND A LAMB VOTING ON WHAT TO HAVE FOR LUNCH. LIBERTY IS A WELL ARMED LAMB CONtestING THE VOTE.
Certified Instructor for Minnesota Carry Permit
NRA Pistol and Personal Protection Insrtuctor
Utah Permit Certified Instructor
May 9th, 2007 04:19 PM
Smother them with love
My wife thinks I have a death wish. I suppose the reason is that whenever someone cuts me off in traffic, or says something derogatory or something else, I usually blow them a kiss or if they hear me I tell them I love them with a big smile.
It seems to drive them crazy but to the point that they do not know how to respond back.
If there was a girl in the car whem I blow a kiss, I usually get the "california howdy" finger from the boyfriend.
I read all of the advisce for Harley and I agree with everyone. It takes a very disciplined person to remain calm and not respond negatively.
May 9th, 2007 04:20 PM
Originally Posted by Stetson
Well, technically that's not what he did.
He did cuss back at the guy (acknowledged as a mistake); but he did not draw because he was cussed at. He drew because two threatening people got out of a vehicle and came toward him with a deadly weapon.
He was right to draw then, for sure. (I agree with the admonition to have a round in the chamber, always.) We all agree that his jawing back at the insult put this on the road to a greater confrontation that need not have happened. Or it could be that these guys were just itching for a fight regardless and no backing down would have prevented it.
So, the lesson learned is to let words slide if you're carrying, because it's bad news if you end up having to use deadly force just because some jerk hurled insults at you.
That's uncalled for. We don't know his history. Yes, it seems to me that he needs some guidance/training regarding the whys and wherefores of carrying concealed for protection. (Not having a chambered round indicates to me that this is an inexperienced individual who has not likely gotten training.) But everyone has to learn. Fortunately, he learned without having to fire. He also should have been the one to summon the police, for sure. By the time they arrived, as the story is told, they could have been made out by the guys in the car to have been the aggressors -- whoever tells the story first usually is the one who gets believed.
You shouldn't have a permit!If you continue down this path you are
going to kill someone or get yorself killed.GROW UP!Carrying a firearm carries a huge responsiblity and to be used as a last resort
to protect yorself and loveones after all other avenues have been exhausted.Remember pride kills!
I would not say that he absolutely should not have a permit. He should learn from this that he needs expert advice and training.
May 9th, 2007 05:35 PM
May 9th, 2007 06:01 PM
I wish this forum had been around when I started carrying. Of course, I started carrying before Al Gores invention had become popular.
Originally Posted by downrange
"A simple way to take measure of a country is to look at how many want in ... And how many want out." British Prime Minister Tony Blair
May 9th, 2007 06:32 PM
Stetson - I think your response was a little over the top. I think he screwed up and knows it and has learned a little from the responses. But I think he'll be fine with his permit.
Harley - I noticed that you didn't respond angrily to Stetson. See. . . . you are already growing.
fortiter in re, suaviter in modo (resolutely in action, gently in manner).
May 9th, 2007 08:10 PM
Even when the insults fly, or the guy in traffic blows his horn and sends unfriendly signs...I have learned to just send a friendly wave! I have already had to ignore 'some' insults, but I just consider the source. Most of the A$$H%!#$ in traffec couldn't spell the insults they yell! My ego no longer is easily bruised, maybe it's age, maybe experience...maybe some of both. I really can walk away, but when the weapon must come out, it will be because taking a shot will be only a second or two away and there won't be much decesion making time at that point...thus the real reason for walking away if possible.
The only point I would make, that does not seem to have been mentioned, is that I would have been on the phone to 911 immediately with a description of the car, the characters, type of bat, etc. When the cops come to you first, that is not a good thing!
Stay armed...stay safe!
"That I cannot do."
"Give this to, uh, Clemenza. I want reliable people, people who aren't going to be carried away. After all we're not murderers in spite of what this undertaker thinks."
Certified Glock Armorer
NRA Life Member
May 9th, 2007 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by jeephipwr
I am taking a wild guess here but I am assuming that the wife is not in the car with you when that happens, otherwise you would get the "love tap" aimed at your groin area.
You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
May 9th, 2007 09:03 PM
Glad things turned out OK, Glad you didn't have to fire because you could have ended up with legal problems afterword. I know it can be tough to hold back, be we gotta. Sometimes, When I get so mad I start not caring about mypotential legal problems, I think about how my actions would only add fuel to the anti gun fire.
Welcome to the forum, these guys and girls are full of wisdom. I value their opinion of me and try not to do anything that they would disapprove of The last thing I want is to be the subject of a "what an idiot" thread.
May 9th, 2007 09:50 PM
This happened to me a loooooong time ago.
Let me relate a situation that happened with my very first CCW permit. I was at the University of Alabama and when this happened I'd just turned 21 and only recently gotten my CCW like the other Army ROTC cadets. I guess I was a junior and it would take me another couple of years to graduate due to credits lost in two school transfers.
I normally rode a 1971 Yamaha 650, but THIS night, I wanted to take my girlfriend to dinner someplace nice. So I borrowed my roomie's Chevy Vega. We're stuck at a stoplight at midnight in downtown Tuscaloosa. Car in front, car behind. TIGHT fit. The other lane is clear. This 1969 Pontiac pulls up and stops next to us. It doesn't move another car length forward to the front of the line. It stops next to US. The huge car is PACKED with Fraternity BROS. You know, the FRAT that BRANDS it's greek letters into the bicep so that a scar is raised above the rest of the skin? Anybody know who I'm speaking of?
ANYWAY, these dudes start talking in loud voices and in very explicit language about my girlfriend. She is plainly terrified. I'm more than a little bit concerned as well. Keep swiveling my head to see if I can spot one of my classmates in the School of Criminal Justice. All the local cops are in my classes. I stayed very frosty. Told my GF: "Ignore them. The light will change and we'll be gone."
Well, the light didn't change and we were still stuck. Finally the driver gets out of the car saying loudly about how he's Gonna kick this candyA$$ and slice him a piece of fine WHITE meat.
I was wearing a Smith and Wesson M19 .357 magnum loaded with 125gr SJHP. I was sporting the piece in my much saved for SafariLand Shoulder Holster. So this guy gets out of the car and crosses in front of his hood. When he gets to the middle of his hood I draw the M19 and lay my wrist along the sill of the window and say calmly You REALLY don't want to DO this." He never missed a beat. Wheeling 180 degrees, he sneers SHEEEEEEEEEEIT, I wuz jes JIVIN' YOU. Suddenly where the car had been packed to the gills, you could now see completely through the vehicle and out the other windows. They were all huddled on the floor whimpering to get out of there....Dude's got a GUN! They burn rubber and run the light just as it turns green. I tried to reholster but couldn't because I was shaking too much. Laid the gun on the seat and drove directly to the police station. The guy on duty, I knew from class.
Hearing the story, he instantly said I should have blown him UP and saved the city the cost of a trial. Well that's ALABAMA in 1978. I'm glad I didn't have to shoot. I'm also aware that had he taken one more step. I would have fired. Two years later, I was commissioned as an Officer of Infantry in the US Army. I was 23. By then, carrying a concealed firearm was old news. I have continually carried a firearm since that time and held permits in multiple states. There have been other close calls and other events.
When I first started carrying,I was pulled aside by a lot of very experienced folks from my ROTC unit and they told me just how serious a responsibility I'd undertaken and they expected me to perform as I was expected to perform on active duty when I'd have responsibility for not just MY life but the lives of the troops I'd command. I got real serious, real fast. I've never forgotten those talks and those times. In just two days, I'll be 50 years old.
Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.
May 10th, 2007 12:09 AM
May 10th, 2007 11:33 AM
If you escalate the fight by yelling back you could be charged if you end up shooting. This is one reason why you want to stay away from road rage situations.When you have a permit you should tend to ignore a lot of things or you might find your self on the wrong side of the bars.
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