Castle Doctrine Upheld - Page 2

Castle Doctrine Upheld

This is a discussion on Castle Doctrine Upheld within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I agree. The fact he ran up and continued to fire can be looked at as an act of aggression not defensive. I was not ...

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Thread: Castle Doctrine Upheld

  1. #16
    Member Array portsider44's Avatar
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    I agree. The fact he ran up and continued to fire can be looked at as an act of aggression not defensive. I was not there so I will not coment on it. I am just glad he got off.
    Of course I was not there either, but in defense of the true victim of this Mr. Borden. He kept shooting until he felt the threat/BG were neutralized. FOr someone that ws not under the same stress as Mr. Border was, may not agree with is actions. However, look at what LEO would have/or have done in similar situations.


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array sass20485's Avatar
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    Glad it went okay for Mr Borden, the true victim in this matter. The BG 's initiated the contact, left and came back for more. THANK you Mr. Borden for drying up part of this poor gene pool. 2 fewer gang member scum bags and their potential offspring removed from our street. Score 1 for the Good Guys, or should that be 2 ??

  3. #18
    Senior Member Array Daddy Warcrimes's Avatar
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    I love this line:
    Araujo's fiancée, Anastasia Bocanegra, 20, wept as the verdicts were read and was incredulous afterward.

    "He got away with killing two people," she said. "The car was stopped. Norman was not in fear for his life. These were not bad guys. They were babies."
    "and suddenly I can not hold back my sword hand's anger"

    DaddyWarcrimes.com

  4. #19
    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Yes, the "Castle Doctrine" ultimately protected him, but my understanding is that he also spent 8 months in jail, awaiting trial, and could just as easily have been convicted. A jury trial is a crap shoot every time. IMO he was lucky that the guys he shot were known gang members. If they were not, I wonder whether the result would have been the same.

    He would have been well advised to have gone home after the initial run in, and called 911. Avoid a potentially deadly confrontation if at all possible.

    Ron
    8 months in jail is better than 6 feet undergorund

  5. #20
    Member Array huntthehunter's Avatar
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    According to the article I read, the "Castle Doctrine" was not a factor in the trial, either way.

    The guys house was burned down the night the shooting occured, both of his dogs were euthanized during the 8 months he was in jail, and now he gets to look over his shoulder for the rest of the gang.

    I agree that it is great that he was able to defend himself, and was found not guilty in the trial. But I think this very clearly illustrates that the gun fight is a small part of the process, and that there will be ramifications to a shooting, justified or not.

    My prayers are with Mr. Borden, and best wishes for a long life.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed azagthoth and Ron.

    The circumstances overall and specific actions by Borden are suspect.
    We as CCW have to not instigate matters and even as we might be slighted (e.g. yelled at out of windows by jerks) we have to err to the side of extreme caution and I know this won't be received well here, but even to some levels display pacifism in so far as ability to just let all but eminent crap threats slide. Folk talking trash out of passing car windows is not necessarily an eminent threat even as they might unknown to us be themselves hoods or associates to as much.

    As to the car being driven near him so close that Borden could reach out and kick it, that tells me he was walking in the street which is itself improper and quite dangerous in general much less at 2AM (!). People in my own neighborhood do this by day walking/jogging in the street rather than use the proper purpose sidewalk right next to them be they walking or exercising just one dog not four.
    From a sidewalk he would not have been able to kick their door outside of them driving up over the curb, which would have left evidence toward as much supporting his case and subsequent defensive reaction.
    I can easily see how the states attorney would take this in conjunction with the decisive action by Borden to rather than flee with his friend in the direction of safety after making his first shots into the car nullifying the driver (7 shots to the face!). Instead he chose after having turned the tables to effectively become the aggressor and engage the remaining targets who themselves were as we now know passengers that were ineffective albeit of course directly involved, and he went on to neutralize them both as well. He had no idea if they were armed but if they were he'd very likely have found himself in one hell of a fire fight. Lucky for him they were not.

    This isn't to me so cut and dry a Castle Doctrine exemplar and I'm not at all surprised it was taken to court with vigor.
    I'd bet Benson wouldn't have gone through half these problems if he had instead made the choice to flee toward safety at his first opportunity even if it meant putting several shots into the windshield of the vehicle assuming it was being used as a credible and immediate weapon & threat. Generally cars driving in the street at any hour even at relatively extra legal speeds is not cause for being interpreted as a weapon and eminent threat. Walking in the street though at any given hour is exposing one self unnecessarily to danger, assuming of course there was a sidewalk available.

    I'm glad for him that he ultimately got off of even as he spent time in jail to think on things and what might have been.
    After his initial defensive volley had fled and at a distance called 911 for cavalry support he'd likely have not been looked at twice by the states attorney office. It's by chance luck that all three of the attackers had real and recognizable ties to street criminals as otherwise even if they weren't choir boys otherwise I bet Borden would be today state property.

    This story is a good example IMHO of what not to do as a CCW and how immediate reactive if not emotional active decision making can result in lives ruined be it your own and/or that of others.
    At the end of the day everybody involved in this case has lost something and paid a price.

    - Janq

    "He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - Friedrich Nietzsche, 'Beyond Good and Evil'
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #22
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    So, If I get home after work around 1 am and I have to walk my dogs, I should not do it because some punks decide it is not the USA but some low-life central american neighborhood all of the sudden and where they own the night?

    So what happens when the gangbangers decide it is also cool to own the day? You gonna stay home? Not go out?
    You have to make the shot when fire is smoking, people are screaming, dogs are barking, kids are crying and sirens are coming.
    Randy Cain.

    Ego will kill you. Leave it at home.
    Signed: Me!

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Nope, that is not what I'd said Miggy.
    I walk my dog at 1AM and later as well.

    What I had said is to walk/jog/exercise ones dog on the sidewalk, at any time be it day or night, and not in the street/road.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #24
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    Saturday I sent an email to the Public Defenders office regarding this case and today received a reply back... Apparently this story was running in another thread as well...

    You can see the emails I sent and the reply I got today from Mr. Bordens attorney at the following link

    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ad.php?t=27962
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #25
    Member Array Protect's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Nope, that is not what I'd said Miggy.
    I walk my dog at 1AM and later as well.

    What I had said is to walk/jog/exercise ones dog on the sidewalk, at any time be it day or night, and not in the street/road.

    - Janq
    No sidewalks in my neighborhood.
    "When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer himóby force.
    "... No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Protect View Post
    No sidewalks in my neighborhood.
    There are in Borden's...


    Witness Juan Mendez points to a map held by Assistant State Attorney Craig Williams, during the first day of testimony in the Norman Borden first degree murder trial in West Palm Beach.
    Source - http://www.palmbeachpost.com/search/...rden_0621.html
    Juan Mendez was the passenger shot multiple times in the legs and the only attacker to survive.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  12. #27
    Member Array Protect's Avatar
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    Wasn't the car off the road in the first place?

    Mendez testified that with Trejo sitting in the back seat, Araujo drove a different route back to Borden's house so they could surprise him. But Araujo "took the corner too fast" and hit the fence, narrowly missing Borden.
    "When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer himóby force.
    "... No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

  13. #28
    Member Array teknoid's Avatar
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    Mendez testified that with Trejo sitting in the back seat, Araujo drove a different route back to Borden's house so they could surprise him. But Araujo "took the corner too fast" and hit the fence, narrowly missing Borden.
    Yeah, who says he was walking his dogs in the street? I don't know about your neighborhood, but mine doesn't have too many fences in the road.

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Borden kicked at the car to start _before_ Araujo choose to loop back around toward Borden's home to "surprise him".

    ...Sometime after 2 a.m., they and Michael Garcia, the brother of Araujo's fiancee, heard voices down the street, Mendez said. The three got in Araujo's Jeep to investigate because they didn't think anybody else should be on Araujo's street.

    They saw Borden and a friend walking the dogs, made a U-turn and yelled taunts as they drove close to him, Mendez said. Araujo became enraged when Borden kicked the passenger door of his Jeep as it passed close by, he said...
    As I'd said a person walking on a sidewalk would not be able to kick at a car driving in the road. Sidewalks are generally set back 3' from the edge/border of a road. Even for those that do abut right up against the side of the road it would require alot from even a long legged person it would be kind of difficult. Not impossible, but require effort. To be able to kick at and actually impact a car driving by he'd likely have to have been in the road, unless he's got legs like Shaq and/or is quite limber. Seriously go outside yourself and try to imitate same/similar on any given sidewalk.
    Also most folk who have a car driving up on them at any rate of closing speed think to move themselves away from the vehicle using distance as a safety buffer. Not to stand there ground and kick at it in defiance. Especially considering just moments prior the same trio of up to no good types were in it harassing you and yelling unpleasantries, at 2AM no less when everybody knows no good types tend to be out.
    I think the states attorney here was wondering what I am too; reasonableness.

    Of course I could be off and/or wrong.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  15. #30
    Member Array teknoid's Avatar
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    Missed that part, but looking at the picture of the neighborhood, there may or may not be sidewalks. If there are, I can't make them out. Were sidewalks mentioned in the story?

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