Success v. failure?

Success v. failure?

This is a discussion on Success v. failure? within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Was watching one of those "Most awesome caught on video" shows last night on Court TV. The last part of the show was about armed ...

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Thread: Success v. failure?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Success v. failure?

    Was watching one of those "Most awesome caught on video" shows last night on Court TV. The last part of the show was about armed robberies. Had some teenie bopper girlies doing stickups in Houston with a .22 revolver. After batting their eyes and crying, they still got 7 years! After that segment saw the stereotypical cop giving out advice not to fight off an attacker...once the bile cleared from the back of my throat, I realized that he said that resisting an attacker greatly increases your chance of being injured or killed (Can't remember which).

    Somehow I doubt the veracity of that statement.

    Are there any stats that show armed victim success v. armed victim failure (or unarmed victim failure)?
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  2. #2
    Member Array LastManOut's Avatar
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    I have seen stats suggesting the likelihood of being killed in an attack when submitting versus fighting back or fleeing are much greater.
    Too often people resign themselves to the attack and are killed or injured.
    I taught the kids to never get in a car, or other compromising position, fight. If they are able to, run (not directly away but on an angle if possible) the BG may or may not have a gun, he may or may not shoot, he may or may not hit you, he may or may not hit a killing shot. "The odds are in your favor."

  3. #3
    Member Array Protect's Avatar
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    You NEVER know if they intend to injure or kill you until it is too late.

    I would agree that fighting back unarmed against an armed agressor might increase your chance of being injured or killed, but I'd rather take a chance and be injured attempting to flee or defend myself than allowing them to kill me.
    "When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer him—by force.
    "... No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

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  5. #4
    Senior Member Array Smith&Wessonfan's Avatar
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    I guess I would rather die like a man instead of like a sheep.

  6. #5
    VIP Member Array OPFOR's Avatar
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    I posted some links to a few studies that looked into this very thing on another thread - you should be able to find some good stuff with a quick Google. The bottom line was this: If you resist, you increase the chances of both escaping unharmed and of being killed or greviously injured, the idea is that if you don't resist well enough, the BG is more likely to hurt you badly or kill you.

    Several studies also noted that in "stranger" rape cases, resisting was statistically a good idea, as you were more likely to escape and less likely to be injured (rapists tend to hurt/kill their victims much more often than robbers, the studies indicated.)

    You can find a some interesting stuff on this subject on these here interwebs...check it out.
    A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.

  7. #6
    1943 - 2009
    Array Captain Crunch's Avatar
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    I think John Lott's More Guns, Less Crime has the stats you're looking for.

    When you’re wounded and left on Afghanistan’s plains,
    And the women come out to cut up what remains,
    Just roll to your rifle and blow out your brains,
    And go to your God like a soldier.

    Rudyard Kipling


  8. #7
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    Every time someone is a good, cooperative victim, it encourages the gremlins to continue in that line of work. Maybe you get away alive today, and tomorrow somebody's grandmother ends up dead. Either you are part of the problem or part of the solution.

    If you watch some of the videos carefully, it looks like in many Stop-n-Rob shooting the BG actually shoots the clerk as an afterthought when he sees that his escape route is clear and there is no danger to him. It's a safe but cowardly way to prove to himself what a tough guy he is.
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  9. #8
    Member Array GotSig?'s Avatar
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    I forgot where i heard/read this:

    "How do you know if the BG is going to shoot you? When he pulls the trigger."
    He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you.
    Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil, Aphorism 146
    German philosopher (1844 - 1900)

  10. #9
    Senior Member Array Daddy Warcrimes's Avatar
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    This is from
    You are far more likely to survive a violent assault if you defend yourself with a gun. In
    episodes where a robbery victim was injured, the injury/defense rates were:
    Resisting with a gun 6%
    Did nothing at all 25%
    Resisted with a knife 40%
    Non-violent resistance 45%
    The source is from the British Home Office.
    "and suddenly I can not hold back my sword hand's anger"

  11. #10
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smith&Wessonfan View Post
    I guess I would rather die like a man instead of like a sheep.

    We are heading down a sad, dangerous path when we allow "authorities" to TEACH HELPLESSNESS. It's truly sick.

  12. #11
    Member Array FLSquirrelHunter's Avatar
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    FL, The "Stand Your Ground' State
    Here's an interesting one: clerk shoots one of two, loses gun, gets beat up but not shot...
    Clerk shoots suspect, but robbery continues

    A clerk at a Jacksonville service station shot a robber Tuesday morning, but couldn't stop the robbery, police said.

    Two men came into the Broward BP at 1188 Broward Road about 10:30 a.m. While one pointed a gun, the other jumped the counter and began struggling with the clerk, said Sgt. Bill Vanaman of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office.

    The clerk had his own gun and shot the man struggling with him, but then he was disarmed, Vanaman said. The robbers then took the store's money and left in an off-white, four-door Saturn, police said.

    Steve Patterson

  13. #12
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Here's a little info I'm going to send to some reporters...

    Y'all are welcome to cut/paste for your own use:

    Dear Reporter,

    I have seen many times in news reports, a Police Department spokesperson tell us that they do not recommend we fight back against criminal assaults, robberies, etc.

    A quick look on Google revealed some studies regarding criminal behavior and victim resistance. I have copied the some of the links I found below, along with the pertinent data within.

    When a Police Officer says we shouldn't fight back, I believe he should be challenged to provide proof that this advice is correct. Based on the studies provided, I believe that the advice is actually injurious to victims of violent crime, thus news outlets that give credence to this advice are playing an active role in endangering their customers.

    As a member of a responsible and trusted news organization, I urge you to seek out the truth of this matter. Citizens need to know how best to protect themselves.

    Thank you,

    Criminologist Dr. Gary Kleck, of the University of Florida, has compiled extensive data from polls and crime statistics. He published the following:

    Attack, Injury and Crime Completion Rates in Robbery Incidents

    Method of % Completed % Attacked % Injured Num Times
    Self Protection Used(a)

    Used gun 30.9 25.2 17.4 89,009
    Used Knife 35.2 55.6 40.3 59,813
    Used other weapon 28.9 41.5 22.0 104,700
    Used physical force 50.1 75.6 50.8 1,653,880
    Tried to get help
    or frighten offender 63.9 73.5 48.9 1,516,141
    Threatened or reasoned
    with offender 53.7 48.1 30.7 955,398
    Nonviolent resistance,
    including evasion 50.8 54.7 34.9 1,539,895
    Other measures 48.5 47.3 26.5 284,423
    Any self-protection 52.1 60.8 38.2 4,603,671
    No self-protection 88.5 41.5 24.7 2,686,960

    Total 65.4 53.7 33.2 7,290,631

    Attack, Injury and Crime Completion Rates in Assault Incidents

    Method of % Attacked % Injured Estimated
    Self Protection Num Times Used(a)

    Used gun 23.2 12.1 386,083
    Used Knife 46.4 29.5 123,062
    Used other weapon 41.4 25.1 454,570
    Used physical force 82.8 52.1 6,638,823
    Tried to get help
    or frighten offender 55.2 40.1 4,383,117
    Threatened or reasoned
    with offender 40.0 24.7 5,743,008
    Nonviolent resistance,
    including evasion 40.0 25.5 8,935,738
    Other measures 36.1 20.7 1,451,103
    Any self-protection 49.5 30.7 21,801,957
    No self-protection 39.9 27.3 6,154,763

    Total 47.3 29.9 27,956,719

    Notes: (a) Separate frequencies in these columns do add totals in the "Any self-protection" row since a single criminal incident can involve more than self-protection method. Sources: Analysis of incident files of 1979-1985 National Crime Survey public use computer tapes (ICPSR,1987b).

    "Significantly, Dr. Kleck notes that the victimization surveys actually exaggerated the association of injury with gun-resistance since the surveys generally fail to ask whether the injury occurs after and because of resistance or whether the injury occurred first. In a supplemental questionnaire, however, it was found that most injuries to armed resisters preceded their resistance: "For cases involving robbery and attack, forceful self-protection actions never preceded the attack ... even the minority of the cases where forceful self-protective acts were accompanied by attacks on the victim, few incidents support the contention that the victim's defensive action provoked the attack."

    As Dr. Kleck puts it in his study: "When victims use guns to resist crimes, the crimes usually are disrupted and the victims not injured." (The American Rifleman)
    Journal of Criminal Law and Criminology (Northwestern)
    Guns and Violence Symposium,
    vol. 86, no. 1, 1995: 150:

    Table 3


    A. What the Defender Did with the Gun [b]
    Brandished or showed gun

    Verbally referred to gun

    Pointed gun at offender

    Fired gun (including warning shots)

    Fired gun at offender, trying to shoot him/her

    Wounded or killed offender

    B. Location of Incident
    In defender's home

    Near defender's home

    At, in, near home of friend, relative, neighbor

    Commercial place (bar, gas station, office, factory)

    Parking lot, commercial garage

    School (in building, on school property, playground)

    Open area, on street or public transportation

    Other locations

    C. Type of Crime Defender Thought Was Being Committed[b]


    Other theft


    Rape, sexual assault

    Other assault

    Other crime

    D. Did Offender Get Away with Money or Property?
    % of property crimes with property loss:

    E. Violence Directed at Defender
    No threat or attack

    Threatened only

    Attacked but not injured

    Attacked and injured

    (In incidents where defender was threatened or attacked):
    Who was first to threaten or use force?


    Someone else

    F. Offender's Weapons[b]
    None (unarmed)



    Other gun


    Other sharp object

    Blunt object

    Other weapon

    G. Shooting
    Did offender shoot at defender?
    % of all incidents

    % of incidents with offender armed with gun

    Did both parties shoot?
    % of all incidents

    H. Type of Gun Used by Defender

    Semi-automatic pistol

    Other, unspecified handgun




    [Page 186]

    I. Relationship of Offender to Defender

    Casual acquaintance


    Boyfriend, girlfriend

    Other friend, coworker

    Brother, sister

    Son, daughter

    Husband, wife

    Other relationship


    J. Number of Offenders




    7 or more (includes 3 cases where defender could only say there was a very large number)

    K. Defender's Perceived Likelihood that Someone Would Have Died
    Had Gun Not Been Used for Protection
    Almost certainly not

    Probably not

    Might Have

    Probably would have

    Almost certainly would have

    Could not say

    L. Were Police Informed of Incident or Otherwise Find Out?

    [a]. Table covers only defensive uses against persons, and excludes nine cases where respondents refused to provide enough detail to confirm incidents as genuine defensive uses.
    [b]. Percentages will sum to more than 100% because respondents could legitimately select or report more than one category.
    [c]. Only 3.7% of incidents involved trespassing as only crime.

    Clay-Warner, J. (2002). Avoiding rape: The effects of protective actions and situational factors on rape outcome. Violence and Victims, 17, 691-705.

    This study evaluates the attempted rape and completed rape reports of 434 women who responded to the National Crime Victimization Survey between 1992 and 1998. To evaluate the influence of specific actions on rape outcome, physical, forceful verbal retaliation, and nonforceful verbal retaliation by the victim was measured in both reports of attempted rape and completed rape. Results show that the victim’s physical resistance was associated with rape avoidance. Forceful verbal retaliation was ineffective in rape outcome while nonforceful verbal retaliation was actually associated with completed rape attempts.
    Ullman, S. E., & Knight, R.A. (1992). Fighting back: Women's resistance to rape. Journal of Interpersonal Violence, 7, 31-43.

    Women's resistance strategies were examined using police reports and court testimonies of 274 women who were survivors of attempted or completed rapes (in cases where the offenders were subsequently incarcerated). The sequence of behaviors in the offender-victim interaction were analyzed to determine whether women who resist rape with physical force are increasing their risk for physical injury. This study indicates that the frequently found correlation between physical resistance and injury to women during a sexual assault might be the result of the initial level of the offender's violence and should not be used to discourage women from physically resisting rape.
    Ullman, S. E., & Knight, R. A. (1993). The efficacy of women's resistance strategies in rape situations. Psychology of Women Quarterly, 17, 23-38.

    This article analyzes the effectiveness of women's resistance strategies for reducing the severity of sexual abuse and physical injury during sexual assaults. Data were obtained from police reports and court testimonies. Resistance strategies varied in their efficacy in different situations in a sample of violent stranger rapes. Results indicate that physical resistance strategies showed equal efficacy, whereas verbal strategies varied in their effectiveness. Over all, women who fought back forcefully were more likely to avoid rape than women who did not fight back, regardless of whether a weapon was present or not.
    Zoucha-Jensen, J. M., & Coyne, A. (1993). The effects of resistance strategies on rape. American Journal of Public Health, 83, 1633-1634.

    The authors investigated which resistance strategies are associated with rape avoidance and the extent to which these strategies place the victim at risk for injury. Data were gathered from initial and supplemental police reports about 150 female sexual assault victims (aged 16+ years). Although the analysis could not determine causality, it did indicate that forceful verbal resistance, physical resistance, and fleeing were all associated with rape avoidance. Women who used forceful resistance were no more likely to have been injured than were women who did not resist.

    Results indicate that self-protection in general reduces the likelihood of property loss and injury, compared to nonresistance. A variety of mostly forceful tactics, including resistance with a gun, appear to have the strongest effects reducing the risk of injury

    The Minnesota Daily

    The best conclusion from available scientific data, then, is when avoidance of rape has failed and one must choose between being raped and resisting, a woman's best option is to resist with a gun in her hands.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  14. #13
    Member Array FLSquirrelHunter's Avatar
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    FL, The "Stand Your Ground' State
    Paramedic, Don't take this personally, but I take issue, strong issue, with one assertion in your post, specifically,
    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    ... Criminologist Dr. Gary Kleck, of the University of Florida, ....

    The doctor is an outstanding criminologist with deserved renown, whose research is solid, but he is (through no fault of his own) not a Gator. Dr Kleck teaches Seminoles at Florida State University, and has no association with THE University of Florida which, by the way, reigns as National Champion in Football and Basketball Basketball [did I say that twice?) Go Gators!
    Last edited by FLSquirrelHunter; July 4th, 2007 at 10:15 AM. Reason: grammar

  15. #14
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    Array Bark'n's Avatar
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    Very good post medic... Thanks for posting the statistics.

    Here's how I look at it. Almost exclusively, an attacker will size up his prey and pick someone he feels is a good (easy) target, at least to some extent.

    Criminals interviewed in prison has stated as much and most have stated that they have broken off an attack at the last minute becuse it "didn't feel right" or they wasn't sure if the victim was armed or not.

    They want an EASY mark/target!

    The moment you are attacked, if you display an immediate counter-attack showing violence of action and fight back with all you have, there is a great possibility they will be more than surprised and a big possibility they will break off the attack and flee to re-evaluate their strategy and pick a new target. They seriously expected you to surrender without action or they wouldn't have picked you in the first place.

    I've got to assume if I am attacked for robbery or assault, I have to think that somewhere along the line, I wasn't doing my part in not looking like a victim, but once the attack is underway, doesn't mean I have to remain a victim.

    When I was about 18 I was mugged in the parking lot of a newly opened major shopping mall about 9pm after christmas shopping. I was going to the car after just buying some big heavy candles for my sister. I was 18 and had no situational awareness that night.

    Two men, probably in their early 20's stepped out from between some cars and displayed a knife and demanded my money. Well, I had been shopping and down to my last $20 and they weren't getting that. I took the bag with the heavy candles and swung it hitting the guy with the knife right square in the side of the face. I remember seeing snot and spit fly outta his mouth in slow motion and him dropping the knife.

    The other guy immediately started saying "Hey MoFo", and right in mid sentence I kicked him as hard as I could right square in the groin and he dropped to his knees. Since he was down I clubbed him with the "bag-o-candles" right upside the head. The bag split and candles flew out but he was down and the other guy was off and running. I then kicked the guy on the ground in the ribs about 3 times cussing him and once in the face.

    I wasn't sure where the other guy went and wasn't gonna stick around for someone to come back with a gun or more guys. I trotted to my car and split rather quickly.

    I don't know why they picked on me. I was just out of high school where I wrestled and I weighed about 185 at the time. To this day I believe they picked me because I was totally unaware, there were two of them and I guess they thought the dumb white kid would be too scared. I mean it startled the crap out of me, but I just flew into a rage. I was pissed, cranky, didn't have as much money as I wanted for christmas shopping and I wasn't gonna give them what I had left.

    The adrenalin dump left me jazzed for several hours. I went home and told my parents and they made me call the police so I did and then my dad drove me back to the mall to meet the police and make a report. Of course they didn't find anyone, but I did find one of my busted candles so I gave that to my sister and told her I got mugged for her christmas present. My dad gave me some bucks so I could finish christmas shopping the next day so I got her a couple cassette tapes. (I think he thought of me as a man that night and was proud. I was an EMT and had just started working in the city about 4 months prior and my mom was always worried.... I told her... hey, I know what I'm doing)

    Bottom line, I literally walked away unscathed from a 2 on 1 knife attack because I suprised the crap out of them and didn't hesitate.

    Just one incident I had but seems to follow the statistics.

    For women, who may be a victim of an abduction, I can only say... You better fight back with everything you have, because the statistics overwhelmingly show that once they get you into a car, things do not turn out good.

    This is just my advice... There are no gurantee's about anything in life!
    Semper Fi

    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  16. #15
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