CHL student...Justifiable Shooting

CHL student...Justifiable Shooting

This is a discussion on CHL student...Justifiable Shooting within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; A friend of mine, and a recent student of our AR. CHL class had to fire his weapon in self defense. It has been a ...

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 26
  1. #1
    Senior Moderator
    Array HotGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,913

    CHL student...Justifiable Shooting

    A friend of mine, and a recent student of our AR. CHL class had to fire his weapon in self defense. It has been a couple of years since he recieved his permit.

    It appeared to be a pretty clear cut case, but when dealing with the courts, one never can tell. Anyhow...here is the story.

    Fifth Judicial Prosecuting Attorney David Gibbons has declined to prosecute a man who shot an acquaintance in the leg July 18 in the Wal-Mart parking lot on East Main Street.
    William Garfield Farr, 50, was arrested later that night in connection with the shooting after he fled the scene without notifying authorities of the incident, a circumstance Gibbons called “troubling” in a memo sent Wednesday to Russellville Police Department Det. Mark Frost, which was provided to The Courier.
    A witness recorded Farr’s license plate number as he drove away, according to a July 20 article by Scott Perkins and Janie Ginocchio.
    In a July 20 bond hearing held at the Pope County Detention Center, District Judge Don Bourne ordered Farr held on a $25,000 commercial bond. At that time, the alleged victim, Ben Lopez, was in stable condition at St. Mary’s Regional Medical Center, according to testimony by Frost.
    Gibbons cited Arkansas Criminal Act 5-2-607 in the memo, which provides that “a person is justified in using deadly physical force upon another person if he reasonably believes that the other person is: (1) Committing or about to commit a felony involving force or violence; (2) Using or about to use unlawful deadly physical force; [or] (3) Imminently endangering his or her life.”
    In the memo, Gibbons wrote despite Farr’s failure to call police and fleeing, “from the evidence, it is clear that Lopez was the initial aggressor and entered Farr’s vehicle while possessing a knife. Farr retreated to the passenger side of his vehicle, a point beyond which he could go no further with complete safety.”
    “Although disputed by Lopez,” Gibbons continued, “the credible evidence is that Lopez struck at Farr with the knife injuring Farr’s lip. At that point, Farr shot Lopez in the leg with a handgun which he was authorized to carry under Arkansas Law.”
    Frost testified July 20 officers found a knife at the scene. During that hearing, Farr appeared to have a small cut on his upper lip consistent with a superficial knife wound.
    Gibbons wrote he anticipates filing battery charges against Lopez in connection with the incident.
    It remains unclear how the two came to meet in the parking lot, as well as what caused the encounter to turn violent.
    the link...http://www.couriernews.com/story.php?ID=15669


    I know about this case because I was on duty the night of the shooting. I could not attend the call due to an earlier murder in which I responded. This man is a friend of mine and I work at my day job with him.

    This is the second student that I have instructed that had to draw his weapon and fire...and the second one to have been declared "justifiable".

    I'm just glad that it worked out for him and hope to see him back at work soon.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/


  2. #2
    Member Array hrtbrk07's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Omaha, Ne
    Posts
    111
    looks like you taught him well! glad hes okay
    "Wear a gun to someone else's house, you're saying, 'I'll defend this home as if it were my own.' When your guests see you carry a weapon, you're telling them, 'I'll defend you as if you were my own family"

  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    2,147
    Do you have any idea why he left the scene without calling police?

  4. #4
    Senior Moderator
    Array HotGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,913
    Yes actually I do.

    He left the scene because there were several of the guys friends present and they started getting ugly.One even threatened to shoot him. He left because he was afraid that he would have to shoot again if he didn't leave.

    In short, he thought it was the safest thing to do...and the Prosecutor apparently thought so too.
    Last edited by HotGuns; August 11th, 2007 at 10:45 PM.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  5. #5
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    He left the scene because there were several of the guys friends present and they started getting ugly.One even threatened to shoot him. He left because he was afraid that the would have to shoot again if he didn't leave.

    In short, he thought it was the safest thing to do...and the Prosecutor apparently thought so too.
    This got me to thinking (extremely rare on a weekend.) Exactly why do we feel compelled to call LE after a justifiable use of deadly force? There is no law (in AZ, that I know of) requiring any person to initiate interaction with LE.

    There are laws that specificially detail exactly what is a justifiable use of deadly force. If the incident resulted in an obvious application of those laws it doesn't seem unreasonable to simply leave the scene.

    Of course, I would never do that simply because it would be prudent to provide LE the facts to assist in their investigation and it may make me look less guilty. But since it was justifiable and I am not guilty it really should not matter. Still, I keep hearing stories of the victim being arrested. Why should I wait around for that eventuality?

  6. #6
    Assistant Administrator
    Array P95Carry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    South West PA
    Posts
    25,484
    Interesting case - and seemingly nicely wrapped up. Thx for the info.

    Looking at his decision to flee I can understand the thinking, altho I guess ideally he should have stopped as soon as out of the area and called it in then.

    Easy to second guess tho - from behind my keyboard!!!
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

  7. #7
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Fort Huachuca, AZ
    Posts
    453
    glad it worked out for the guy. also, congratulations on teaching them well!

    p.s. wherebouts in AR was this? i was born/raised in Jonesboro, and my folks live in Conway.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  8. #8
    Senior Moderator
    Array HotGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,913
    Russellville.
    Right in front of Walmart.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  9. #9
    VIP Member Array peacefuljeffrey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    south Florida
    Posts
    3,168
    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    This is the second student that I have instructed that had to draw his weapon and fire...and the second one to have been declared "justifiable".

    I'm just glad that it worked out for him and hope to see him back at work soon.
    The NRA's book "A Guide to Personal Defense Outside the Home" makes pretty clear that unless you cannot guarantee your own safety if you remain on the scene, you should await the police after you've shot someone. If you're not doing that, it better be because you are in danger if you remain, or you have no phone with which to summon the police; and if you do leave, you'd better make sure that you call the police as soon as possible. You don't want to make it appear that you tried to eliminate evidence, i.e. by washing your hands, changing clothes, etc.

    It seems clear that if your friend was in danger of violent retribution by this guy's friends, he was justified in leaving the area. That would be among the first things I would say to the police after the incident. "I was attacked by that man; I feared for my life, as he was coming at me with a weapon; I fired in self defense; I was forced to leave the scene for my own safety because my attacker's associates were threatening to shoot me. Beyond that, officer, you and I both understand that this situation is very serious, and I must consult with an attorney and once I have done so I will give a complete statement and cooperate in any further investigation."

  10. #10
    Moderator
    Array Bark'n's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    West Central Missouri
    Posts
    9,917
    Great post HotGuns!
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #11
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Texan in NWFlorida
    Posts
    1,588

    Cool

    I can see that the reason he left the scene was because of the additional threats by the guys friends. He did not want further confrontation.
    But, didn't he go home?
    Seems to me he should have left the immediate area for safety sake then called LE and report.
    I say this because IMO, he increased the odds that a story could be turned around on him that would make him possibly the aggressor.
    Although justifiable, and I'm glad is OK with him, I feel he is lucky no charges were filed against him.

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Franklin, VA
    Posts
    5,135
    You taught him to aim too low.

    I recall an old Ayoob files story that discussed fleeing a justifiable shooting. Shooter got a long prison sentence because flight was considered prima facie evidence of guilt (at least in the jurisdiction in question).
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  13. #13
    Member Array Protect's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tulsa, OK
    Posts
    302
    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    This got me to thinking (extremely rare on a weekend.) Exactly why do we feel compelled to call LE after a justifiable use of deadly force? There is no law (in AZ, that I know of) requiring any person to initiate interaction with LE.

    There are laws that specificially detail exactly what is a justifiable use of deadly force. If the incident resulted in an obvious application of those laws it doesn't seem unreasonable to simply leave the scene.

    Of course, I would never do that simply because it would be prudent to provide LE the facts to assist in their investigation and it may make me look less guilty. But since it was justifiable and I am not guilty it really should not matter. Still, I keep hearing stories of the victim being arrested. Why should I wait around for that eventuality?
    You are fleeing the scene of a crime, that you were involved in. If you shoot someone, someone broke the law, either you or the person you shot. While you must make the decision about protecting your life, the LEO determines if there is reason to arrest you, and the DA or the Grand Jury decides if there is reason to proecute you. We as individuals do not get to determine if it was legally justifiable use of deadly force.

    In this case, he was attempting to avoid any further confrontation, but he still should have called the poilice as he was fleeing. Not always the easiest thing to do when your adrenalin is pumping.
    "When a man attempts to deal with me by force, I answer himóby force.
    "... No, I do not share his evil or sink to his concept of morality: I merely grant him his choice, destruction, the only destruction he had the right to choose: his own." -John Galt, Atlas Shrugged

  14. #14
    Senior Moderator
    Array HotGuns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Arkansas
    Posts
    14,913
    But, didn't he go home?
    Actually..he didn't make it that far.

    That "superficial wound"by knife that the article mentions was responsible for getting 8 stitches in his lip, given to him in the ER.

    By the time he left the parking lot of Walmart, the police had his license no. make of truck, direction of travel,accurate description, the whole nine yards as there were a multitude of witnesses.

    Sheriff Dept and City Police cars enacted a felony stop on him not far from his home stopping him in the middle of the road and extracting him at gunpoint.

    They recovered the gun, a .380, and arrested him. They then transported him to the Emergency Room where he was attended to.

    He was very cooperative and immediately retained a lawyer.

    The Prosecutor is the same one that teaches our legal portion of our CHL classes. He is well aware of the law and very pro defense and very level headed about the use of it.

    No doubt my friend benefited from that.

    The exact same scenario in another state that is known to be anti-gun may have resulted in a 10 year sentence, loss of his his, job, marriage ,rights, etc.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


    AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
    Like custom guns and stuff? Check this out...
    http://bobbailey1959.wordpress.com/

  15. #15
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by Protect View Post
    You are fleeing the scene of a crime, that you were involved in. If you shoot someone, someone broke the law, either you or the person you shot.
    The word 'fleeing' implies some level of guilt.

    If I did not break any law why should I hang around? Witnessing a crime (that of the perpetrator) does not compel me to call LE. If someone punches me in the face they have committed a crime. By the same argument I must call LE and wait around though I have not violated the law. That my life was threatened only makes me a witness, not a participant in a crime.

    As I previously wrote, I am not advocating, condoning or endorsing this action. It just seems as if there is an idea that someone employing a justifiable use of deadly force is presumed guilty and needs to prove innocence. In AZ, the 'Castle Doctrine' precludes that idea. In practice, of course, it is a different matter.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Las Vegas Costco shooting ruled justifiable
    By swinokur in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: September 30th, 2010, 11:27 AM
  2. Shooting of officer is ruled justifiable.
    By mcmurry in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: September 6th, 2010, 05:12 PM
  3. Suffolk (VA) cemetery shooting that left man dead ruled justifiable
    By paramedic70002 in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: December 20th, 2009, 12:07 PM
  4. Justifiable Shooting/story pics on website
    By MTGun in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 51
    Last Post: November 23rd, 2008, 04:03 AM
  5. Justifiable shooting question
    By ENSANE1970 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 22
    Last Post: September 13th, 2007, 08:32 PM

Search tags for this page

chl instead of drivers liscense employment
,
chl justified shootings
,
chl use flee the scene
,

garfield farr

,
garfield farr russellville,ar
,
garfield farr russelville, ar
,
justifiable shooting arizona law
,
justifiable shooting in arizona
,
justified shooting with chl
,
powered by mybb conway regional medical center
,

william garfield farr

,
william garfield farr russellville
Click on a term to search for related topics.

» Log in

User Name:

Password:

Not a member yet?
Register Now!

» DefensiveCarry Sponsors