Tulsa District Attorney Abuse of Power:Charge filed in road-rage homicide

This is a discussion on Tulsa District Attorney Abuse of Power:Charge filed in road-rage homicide within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Janq I do not. The law is the law. - Janq and as has often been said, "The Law, is an Ass!" ...

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Thread: Tulsa District Attorney Abuse of Power:Charge filed in road-rage homicide

  1. #76
    Member Array Puppy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    I do not.

    The law is the law.

    - Janq
    and as has often been said, "The Law, is an Ass!"

    To bad common sense never seems to enter the law.

    I guess if you and I were on it, it would be a hung jury.

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  3. #77
    Member Array CelticWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by landelmer View Post
    When I read this I was reminded that the "National NRA Gunshow" will be here in Oct. and Mayor Kathy Taylor is with Bloomberg's gun group here in Tulsa.

    A former security guard who said he feared for his life was not justified in shooting another man, the D.A. says.


    Tulsa County District Attorney Tim Harris charged a retired security guard Monday with first-degree manslaughter, saying the suspect had no justifiable reason to shoot a man to death during a road-rage dispute.

    Kenneth Ray Gumm, 67, who is CLEET-certified and has a concealed-carry license, told police that he felt threatened by Dale Turney, 47, when he shot Turney in a River Parks parking lot June 10.

    An autopsy report shows that Turney's blood-alcohol level was 0.8 -- meaning he was legally too drunk to drive -- and that he had methamphetamine in his system when he died.

    Harris said he decided to file the manslaughter charge after an investigation in which he personally interviewed witnesses, looked at photographs and researched toxicology reports.

    Oklahoma's "Stand Your Ground" law, which went into effect Nov.1, allows people to use deadly force in certain conditions in which they have "a reasonable fear of imminent peril of death or great bodily harm," according to state statute.

    But Harris said that "deadly force wasn't justified in this situation."

    For the Stand Your Ground law to apply, the prosecutor said, the person against whom deadly force is used must be entering a residence or vehicle or trying to remove someone forcibly from the dwelling or vehicle.

    Harris said Gumm had no reason to believe that he was in imminent danger and that he wasn't being pulled from his vehicle by Turney.

    Another section of the Stand Your Ground law indicates, however, that the attack can take place "in any other place where he or she (the shooter) has a right to be."

    Harris said he expects that Gumm will surrender to authorities.

    Gumm was not in the Tulsa Jail late Wednesday, and telephone calls to his home were not returned.

    The events that led to the shooting began when Turney received a call from a friend, Charles Geltz, who asked for a ride home from a Brookside bar because he was too drunk to drive, according to a police affidavit.

    Turney picked him up, and as Turney was driving north on Riverside Drive, Gumm pulled out in front of him at 26th Street, according to the affidavit.

    Gumm drove north on Riverside before slowing seven blocks later to turn left into a parking lot near 19th Street.

    Turney yelled at Gumm, made an obscene gesture and followed him to the parking lot, the affidavit says.

    Gumm parked his 1992 Honda, and Turney parked his 1991 Ford Escort behind him, blocking Gumm's car, according to the affidavit.

    Turney then walked toward Gumm, who got out of his car holding his .38-caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, the affidavit says.

    Gumm described Turney as being in a rage and told police that Turney said, "You're history," according to the document.

    Gumm told investigators that he took that statement as a threat against his life, the affidavit says.

    Police had said after the shooting that Gumm said he warned Turney that he had a gun and that because of health problems, he couldn't run away or fight him.

    Gumm also told investigators that he "backed away from Turney approximately two times around his (Gumm's) car" before Turney pushed his shoulder, according to the affidavit.

    Turney was shot once in the chest during the confrontation. He was taken to St. John Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead.

    Gumm said he didn't remember whether his gun went off when he was pushed or if he consciously pulled the trigger, the affidavit says.

    Gumm has a license to carry a concealed weapon and is certified as an armed security guard by the Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training.

    If convicted of the manslaughter charge, he could face four years to life in prison, according to the District Attorney's Office.

    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...A15_hAfor25553

    This deserves everyones attention please inform as many fourms and Watchdog groups as possible. I do not personally know this guy but it sure does make me mad as hell.

    I posted this in the wrong section could someone please move it. Thank -you
    BAC was .8? Sure he didn't die of alcohol poisioning?
    Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about seeking whom he may devour. 1 Peter 5:8


    http://groups.myspace.com/Concealedcarry

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Puppy View Post
    and as has often been said, "The Law, is an Ass!"

    To bad common sense never seems to enter the law.

    I guess if you and I were on it, it would be a hung jury.
    Yep, and BTW I very much agree with you.

    Problem is common sense is a misnomer and if it had been applied here then alot of things would not have occurred the least of which would be Gumm making incriminating statements against himself to the police no doubt at the time thinking he was being reasonable in talking to explain the situation of suck.

    The biggest lesson here is don't say jack to no one but your attorney.
    I don't even think I'd talk about as much with my wife even as she cannot by law be called to testify against me. Reason being I know for a fact she can't keep her lips zipped like I can and she'd eventually go tell someone something who then would tell another and then the next thing you know it's in the news as 'evidence'.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #79
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    I saw one person...peacefuljeffery....say he didn't care about where the DA was coming from. WRONG. You should always care, because it might be your neck on the chopping block next. Knowing the mindset of a DA is not a bad thing...it can protect you.
    I see where this man made several mistakes. One...he went into a deserted parking lot when he knew he was being followed. Two...he let himself get blocked in. Three...he got out of his car. Four....and I believe the BIGGEST mistake was saying to L.E. that he was unsure of pulling the trigger.
    The first three mistakes are easy to see, but that fourth one was the "killer".
    " Gumm said he didn't remember whether his gun went off when he was pushed or if he consciously pulled the trigger, the affidavit says. "

    Look at in relation to this type of incident.
    "I ran the red light, but I didn't see the kid on the bicycle."
    Kid is dead....accident, but you showed careless disreguard by running the red light. Thus the man slaughter charge. You didn't mean to hit the kid...you didn't want to kill him, BUT YOU ran a red light. If you had a green light and the kid rode out in front of you...you wouldn't be held to that standard.

    He should have said, "I shot the man because I feared for my life." Plain and simple. Better yet...he shouldn't have said anything until after he had a lawyer. You never, NEVER say you question your actions in a shooting. Leaves too much room for a DA.
    I really believe this statement is the main problem this man has and why the DA is going after him.
    If you decide to carry a deadly weapon for self protection, you better have control of it at all times. There is no place for "I didn't mean to shoot him" or "I don't remember pulling the trigger." You are not given this kind of "wiggle room". If you use that weapon, but better mean to use it and for the right reasons.
    I hope things turn out well for this gentleman. I don't believe he deserves this...I think even though he made a few mistakes, he had the right to defend himself. Let's hope the jury feels the same.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
    Susan B. Anthony
    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
    Robert Heinlein

  6. #80
    Member Array btaulbee's Avatar
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    I have said it before and I will say it again you cant shoot an unarmed man unless he is in your home, trying to get in your car, is trying to abduct you or is armed with a deadly weapon (gun, knife, pipe). The best thing to do would have been to stay in the car and call 911 being ready for the assailant to break into the car or hit the gas. If the BG breaks into car then under the Stand Your Ground law you can use deadly force. This makes a good point to always have a taser or pepper spray at the ready. It just might have kept this guy from having to use deadly force. Also I would not have pulled into the parking space but would have kept driving to the Police station near 71st and Riverside.

  7. #81
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    At the very least this 67 year old man was in fear of substantial bodily harm and at his age that would certainly put his life in danger! What in the hell is wrong with this D.A.?
    ALWAYS carry! - NEVER tell!

    "A superior Operator is best defined as someone who uses his superior
    judgement to keep himself out of situations that would require a display of his
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  8. #82
    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    I agree with Janq and Sixto's first post.

    From reading to article the DA must investigate and probably convene a grand jury.
    i hope this man mr. gumm has an attorney at the grand jury hearing, as eyewitnesses are notorious for being incorrect in the way they remember......events occuring.

    as we all know, theres nothing threatening about a drunken meth head.he should be given all due consideration mr D.A.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
    ― Thomas Paine

  9. #83
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Is it? If it is, then I take back whatever I said that might be taken as defending him.
    Good answer but it does validate what you originally posted it is hard for us to make a call without having all the info. I based my opinion on the toxicological test. We both know meth heads appear psycho and crazed at their best moments. Combative and assaultive is the norm for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    As well Gumm made a judgemental mistake in exiting his vehicle to confront Turney.
    Turney had blocked him in with his car barring escape. Are you proposing it is a good tactical move to remain trapped in your car with limited mobility while a hostile ranting potentially armed wack job comes after you? Seems like a good way to be carried by six to me.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  10. #84
    Senior Member Array mojust's Avatar
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    Exclamation

    Here's an example of the prudent use of pepper spray. My guess is the SG would not have been convicted if the rager hadn't been a former DA. Thick as thieves, those guys. Nevertheless, bad move to shoot him.

  11. #85
    Member Array landelmer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mojust View Post
    Here's an example of the prudent use of pepper spray. My guess is the SG would not have been convicted if the rager hadn't been a former DA. Thick as thieves, those guys. Nevertheless, bad move to shoot him.
    What are you trying to say? I really do not understand what this means.

  12. #86
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    Turney had blocked him in with his car barring escape. Are you proposing it is a good tactical move to remain trapped in your car with limited mobility while a hostile ranting potentially armed wack job comes after you? Seems like a good way to be carried by six to me.
    Yes, and it's been discussed at length prior.

    Turney was not armed with anything other than bad breath.
    Stay in the vehicle, armed and ready. Let the crazy BG have his say and stay protected behind hard to penetrate steel and yes glass.

    In this case Gumm not only exited his vehicle but per his own statements to the police actively engaged Turney with his side arm deployed and met him at the rear of his own (Gumm) vehicle. That is not defense, it's offense.

    Again this had been covered in great detail in this thread weeks ago, please read back to catch up as the above is repetition of what has already been said and discussed.

    Further the DA is seeing the situation similarly.
    Gumm should have sat in his car and waited Turney out to curse him and leave _OR_ make some actual direct offensive action toward him. It is not lawful to pre-emptively attack a person because we might think they seem scary or are acting like a drunk or nut ball toward us (yelling at and following people seemingly to Gumm at random from inside of cars in the middle of the night).
    As to being blocked in who hasn't that happened to in life? That alone is no reason at all to exit ones vehicle and pre-emptively take an offensive position toward a person. Turney seeing Gumm take this position then himself made the choice to rather than back down engage Gumm with empty hands and attack him with words and his physical presence to which Gumm then back pedaled around Turney's vehicle a rotation before making the decision to shoot him.

    The tables had turned from Turney being the initiating aggravator (cursing Gumm with words and following him into the parking lot) to Gumm turning the tables pre-emptively and offensively (not defensively) to attacking Turney and subsequently from there shooting him as ironically the BG stood his own ground in response to being on the defense from a now on the offensive Gumm.

    Reread the statements and timeline as reported to the police by Gumm.
    This is yet another example of why it's best to keep ones mouth shuttered and to let your attorney do the talking, following prior thought and filtering.

    - Janq

    "Be careful when you fight the monsters lest you become one." - Nietzsche
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #87
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Turney was not armed with anything other than bad breath.
    Stay in the vehicle, armed and ready. Let the crazy BG have his say and stay protected behind hard to penetrate steel and yes glass.
    We are going to have to agree to disagree that staying in the car is the safest tactical move. Yes, Turney did turn out to be unarmed he made the mistake of thinking he was going to bully a helpless old man. But he could have just as well been armed. We do not know how he approached the car. Was his hand behind him? Could he have had a weapon? If he did how long would it take for him to deploy it? My wife & I went out and did a replay, it's fractions of a second from not knowing until first notice. The bullet hitting you. I am convinced the inside of a car is NOT the place to be when an aggressor is coming at you. Unless you have the option of driving away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    This is yet another example of why it's best to keep ones mouth shuttered and to let your attorney do the talking, following prior thought and filtering.
    This we agree on IMO if involved in a shooting say I need to speak with my lawyer, nothing else. Period.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  14. #88
    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    what about this guy that was w/turner? the other drunk or whoever he was, has he said anything about the incident?..
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
    ― Thomas Paine

  15. #89
    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    We are going to have to agree to disagree that staying in the car is the safest tactical move. Yes, Turney did turn out to be unarmed he made the mistake of thinking he was going to bully a helpless old man. But he could have just as well been armed. We do not know how he approached the car. Was his hand behind him? Could he have had a weapon? If he did how long would it take for him to deploy it? My wife & I went out and did a replay, it's fractions of a second from not knowing until first notice. The bullet hitting you. I am convinced the inside of a car is NOT the place to be when an aggressor is coming at you. Unless you have the option of driving away.


    This we agree on IMO if involved in a shooting say I need to speak with my lawyer, nothing else. Period.
    + 1 to you longrider
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
    ― Thomas Paine

  16. #90
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    We are going to have to agree to disagree that staying in the car is the safest tactical move. Yes, Turney did turn out to be unarmed he made the mistake of thinking he was going to bully a helpless old man. But he could have just as well been armed. We do not know how he approached the car. Was his hand behind him? Could he have had a weapon? If he did how long would it take for him to deploy it? My wife & I went out and did a replay, it's fractions of a second from not knowing until first notice. The bullet hitting you. I am convinced the inside of a car is NOT the place to be when an aggressor is coming at you. Unless you have the option of driving away.

    This we agree on IMO if involved in a shooting say I need to speak with my lawyer, nothing else. Period.
    The thing is though, that's not what happened or rather is not how things are described per his statement.

    Below is the statement as featured in the OP...

    ...Turney yelled at Gumm, made an obscene gesture and followed him to the parking lot, the affidavit says.

    Gumm parked his 1992 Honda, and Turney parked his 1991 Ford Escort behind him, blocking Gumm's car, according to the affidavit.

    Turney then walked toward Gumm, who got out of his car holding his .38-caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, the affidavit says.

    Gumm described Turney as being in a rage and told police that Turney said, "You're history," according to the document.

    Gumm told investigators that he took that statement as a threat against his life, the affidavit says.

    Police had said after the shooting that Gumm said he warned Turney that he had a gun and that because of health problems, he couldn't run away or fight him.

    Gumm also told investigators that he "backed away from Turney approximately two times around his (Gumm's) car" before Turney pushed his shoulder, according to the affidavit.

    Turney was shot once in the chest during the confrontation. He was taken to St. John Medical Center, where he was pronounced dead.

    Gumm said he didn't remember whether his gun went off when he was pushed or if he consciously pulled the trigger, the affidavit says.

    Gumm has a license to carry a concealed weapon and is certified as an armed security guard by the Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training.
    Gumm exited his parked car with the gun in hand and approached Turney.
    Turney in response responded; "You're history". Turney was unarmed. At this point Gumm became the aggressor.
    Gumm back pedaled around his own car now having changed his mind from being the aggressor to not wanting any part of what Turney was stating by voice and body language to bring, upon being threatened by Gumm with bodily harm as per his display of the gun. That in and of itself is a crime. And Gumm should know this being as he is "certified as an armed security guard by the Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training". Again this has been covered before if you look back a page or two.

    So now Gumm is back pedaling around his car for the second time gun up and aimed at Turney's chest.
    BOOM
    Turney the unarmed very much irrational acting drunk drops.

    Had Gumm stayed in his vehicle which provides far greater protection from an armed/unarmed attacker than air he'd have been able to observe Turney, and his second, and ascertain whether or not this guy is a shoot or no shoot case. Is he just some drunk crazy who will move on after swearing him a blue mile or is this guy, and his passenger, a real deal threat be they armed or unarmed.
    Had either one been armed his exiting his vehicle was not going to help him in any way. All he'd have for cover is air. And as he himself stated he was in no condition physically to run. Meanwhile playing the odds if they are not armed he'd stand a far better chance of avoidance and protection encased in steel and yes glass than he would amongst air.
    So he exited his car, displayed his weapon, and found himself in the air with no cover, no concealment, no ability to flee, and no time opportunity to get back in his vehicle. Worst he's back pedaling around his vehicle in the dark with limited mobility per his own statement and he's got his Ace in the hole on display and finger on the trigger. All bad.

    Stay in the car, keep the engine running, foot on the gas, and observe.
    For that matter when being obviously followed and it's a known, do not pull into a parking area and actually park muchless in a space that allows you to be blocked in. But that too has been covered in pages prior, along with a link to the site which details the training involved with becoming certified as an armed security guard by the Council on Law Enforcement Education and Training.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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