Tulsa District Attorney Abuse of Power:Charge filed in road-rage homicide

This is a discussion on Tulsa District Attorney Abuse of Power:Charge filed in road-rage homicide within the In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly forums, part of the The Back Porch category; This thread has been beat to death, and I doubt that anyone is going to change their minds on this. Some of us believe that ...

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Thread: Tulsa District Attorney Abuse of Power:Charge filed in road-rage homicide

  1. #91
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    This thread has been beat to death, and I doubt that anyone is going to change their minds on this. Some of us believe that Gumm should have stayed in his car, some don't. Anyway, I usually don't like to muddy up scenarios or actual cases but just for kicks on this one, lets see if you think the same if we switch it just a bit.

    Substitute, angry road rage for, they just had a fender bender at a stop light or parking lot, whereever. Turney gets all irrate and heads towards Gumm, and Gumm exits his car with pistol in hand. Is Gumm still right to exit vehicle with pistol in hand, or should he have stayed in his vehicle while the rage was taking place? This is the same basic scenario as far as legal issues go. If your answer is yes to this one that Gumm should have exited with gun in hand, we definately need to start a refresher course in concealed carry laws IMO.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  3. #92
    Senior Member Array Freedom Doc's Avatar
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    I see no problem with exiting your car with pistol in hand, especially if you keep it at low ready. If someone who is obviously angry is heading for my car, and it is not clear if they are armed, there is no reason I should put myself at a disadvantage especially if I (like Gumm) have health and physical limitations already.
    Anti-gunners seem to believe that if we just pass enough laws, we can have utopia. Unfortunately, utopia is NOT one of our choices.

  4. #93
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Gumm exited his parked car with the gun in hand and approached Turney.

    - Janq
    I'm just trying to gather all the facts here, and I'd really like to know where you saw this. I've read every post in this thread and I cannot find this statement anywhere (other than in your post). From the OP:
    .........according to a police affidavit.........
    Gumm parked his 1992 Honda, and Turney parked his 1991 Ford Escort behind him, blocking Gumm's car, according to the affidavit.

    Turney then walked toward Gumm, who got out of his car holding his .38-caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, the affidavit says.

    Gumm described Turney as being in a rage and told police that Turney said, "You're history," according to the document.
    I don't want to debate whether getting out of the car was a good idea or not, I'd just appreciate knowing where you got the idea that Gumm approached Turney, unless you are considering the mere act of opening his door as approaching Turney.

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  5. #94
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cvhoss View Post
    I'm just trying to gather all the facts here, and I'd really like to know where you saw this. I've read every post in this thread and I cannot find this statement anywhere (other than in your post)...
    Hoss,

    The .38 caliber revolver was possessed by Gumm.

    It's featured in the OP as carried over from the article, which I'd above re-quoted.
    "Turney then walked toward Gumm, who got out of his car holding his .38-caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, the affidavit says."

    Turney exited his car and walked toward Gumm, to which Gumm stepped out of his car holding the .38.
    Turney was empty handed and according to Gumm "pushed" him just prior to Gumm subsequently firing the .38 that he, Gumm, possessed.

    Additonal news sources:
    *Area man is shot dead along Riverside Drive
    6/11/2007
    Last Modified: 6/14/2007 6:08 AM
    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic..._A1_spanc64042
    " Gumm reportedly pulled a gun and shot Turney once in the chest, police said. Turney was pronounced dead at the scene. "

    * Man surrenders to police in road-rage shooting
    Updated: Sep 28, 2007 04:35 PM
    http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?S=7143598

    * Shooting questioned
    Aug. 03, 2007 04:04: PM
    http://www.news-star.com/stories/061307/new_49165.shtml
    "The shooter, Kenneth Ray Gumm, has a concealed-carry license and had a .38-caliber handgun on him when Dale Allen Turney, 48, of Sand Springs, confronted him Sunday afternoon, Cpl. Gene Watkins said."

    * Ex-guard due trial in killing
    Thursday, November 29, 2007
    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...A13_hThed64720

    Charles Geltz, a friend of Turney's, testified that Turney picked him up at a Brookside bar to drive him home because Geltz was intoxicated.

    Geltz said he went to sleep in the car and awakened near 19th Street and Riverside Drive.

    "I heard someone yell, "Don't shove me," and then I heard a bang," he testified.

    Geltz said he looked up, saw Gumm with a pistol and saw Turney fall.

    Robin Rose, who was sitting in a parked car, testified that Gumm and Turney were arguing and cursing at each other.

    She said that Gumm had pulled into a parking area and that Turney pulled in behind him and walked toward Gumm's car. Both men "were not happy campers," and they pointed fingers at each other, Rose said.
    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  6. #95
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Gee, when you put a face with the thing, the guy doesn't look nearly as frail as he is made out to be in the thread. That could be me in a few years.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  7. #96
    VIP Member Array cvhoss's Avatar
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    Janq,
    I'm going to try again. Please read your quoted post in my post above. In it, you say that "Gumm exited his parked car with the gun in hand and approached Turney." I'm not disputing that Gumm exited his vehicle with his gun in hand. I'm trying to find where you've seen anything printed that Gumm (the shooter) approached Turney. I've followed every link in your last post and all I can find is that after Turney parked behind Gumm blocking him in, Turney then got out of his car and approached Gumm, who responded by getting out of his car with his firearm. I still can find nothing that says Gumm approached Turney unless, as I asked previously, you are saying that the act of opening his car door and stepping out was "approaching Turney". If you and I are assigning the same meaning to OP (original post), the only quote in the OP about one approaching the other is "Turney then walked toward Gumm, who got out of his car holding his .38-caliber Smith and Wesson revolver, the affidavit says." Again, Turney then walked toward Gumm, nothing about Gumm approaching Turney. The only reason I find this relevant is that in your earlier post, you used the quote "Gumm exited his parked car with the gun in hand and approached Turney." as part of your reasoning to determine that "At this point Gumm became the aggressor". If, in fact, Gumm exited his vehicle with the firearm and approached Turney, I would be more inclined to agree with you that at that point Gumm had become the aggressor. But to this point, I can find no validation for your original statement that Gumm approached Turney.

    Hoss
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  8. #97
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Got ya Hoss, I did misunderstand where you were going and asking prior.

    Yes.
    Gumm stepping foot out of his vehicle to engage Turney is an 'approach'.
    The distance Gumm traveled, toward or away from Turney, immediately subsequent to opening his door and now being standing outside of his car prior to back pedalling around his own vehicle is an unknown as it's not featured in any report.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #98
    Member Array phaed's Avatar
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    *if* it went down as described in the first post, good shoot. hat's off to the old man, and hope it turns out ok for him.
    War is not the ugliest of things. Worse is the decayed state of moral feeling which thinks nothing is worth a war. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which he cares for more than his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free. -J.S. Mill

  10. #99
    VIP Member Array stormbringerr's Avatar
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    i read in an online tulsa newspaper that gumm was already out of his car with his doors locked when turney pulled up and blocked him in.
    he didn't even know turney was following him till he was starting to walk away from his car. this is what gumm says anyway.
    also the guy riding with turney says he was asleep until he heard someone say, don't shove me then heard a gunshot......hmmmmm
    http://kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=129844

    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...A13_hThed64720
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one.
    ― Thomas Paine

  11. #100
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stormbringerr View Post
    i read in an online tulsa newspaper that gumm was already out of his car with his doors locked when turney pulled up and blocked him in.
    he didn't even know turney was following him till he was starting to walk away from his car. this is what gumm says anyway.
    also the guy riding with turney says he was asleep until he heard someone say, don't shove me then heard a gunshot......hmmmmm
    http://kotv.com/news/local/story/?id=129844

    http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/artic...A13_hThed64720
    Reading those confirms that Turney got exactly what he was asking for. Chase me down, block my car from escape, come charging out of his car at me ranting, chase me around my car, threaten me than but his grubby dope fiend front paws on me. Turney toast time. It is very sad to see that some one would waste a life being a drunk abusive angry drug addict. I am sorry that Mr Gumm has to suffer so much for being forced into having to do such a horrible thing.
    The insane family comment about well if he had to shoot him he could have just shot him in the leg or arm is scary because there are people who actually believe that. I have a bro who did seven and a half years because he shot a guy in the chest AFTER the guy blew my bro's finger off. The guy drew on my bro, my bro grabbed the guy's gun while drawing his own. The guy fired and blew my bro's pinky off. My bro hit center of mass. Jury concluded that he could have winged the guy in the leg or arm instead. Did every minute of a mandatory minimum 7 1/2 years sentance.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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